$100K great new income, yeh right!!!!!

TammyTammy

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 6:14 pm

shoy18 wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

only1 wrote:

amother wrote:

This whole thread makes me really angry. We left NY and moved to an out-of-town community because financially it was too difficult in NY. I am ashamed that so many people in Klal Yisrael are willing to lie in order to live in a community which is too expensive for them. Yes, I would love to live near my family. It is not an option for us. Oy, oy, oy, to see what Klal Yisrael has sunk to. You know, all these bubbies and zaidies worked long, grueling hours in factories because they spoke no English--and they raised Torahdik families who are beautiful, and yes they should have the nachas of living close to the eineklach and being at all the simchas--but what sort of nachas is it for them, that their children and grandchildren are lying and deceiving and breaking the law and over basic halacha with ZERO BUSHA? Better the families should live farther away from the bubbies and call a lot on the phone and drive/fly to visit, and be mentchen.

Does anyone know if HALACHICALLY getting benefits from the government you may not need is the equivalent of stealing?

Is that a serious question? Why wouldn't it be stealing?

If you're entitled to it, then it's not stealing. She questioned about need.

If I retire a billionaire, I'm still entitled to Social Security, and if I take it, it is not stealing at all.

Tammy

Social security is quite different than wic or the like. You work your whole life and put aside money for social security, its mostly your money, who cares how rich you are. As for wic, if you dont not need it why take it away from those actually do need it.

If you meet the guidelines, then it's not stealing -- that simple. If you want to discuss whether or not it's *proper* to take it, that's another discussion. But it is not stealing.

Tammy

YALT

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 6:54 pm

the question is (the way I see it):
If a person doesn't fit in the brackets, and they work off the books or hide partial, in order to "fit in the brackets" - then are they stealing?
And yes, there is a limit to how many ppl can get help.
Like Shoy18 said: Social Security is YOUR OWN money, and has nothing to do with how much your making. They made the program to help ppl. be able to save money for "the ripe old age". No matter how much you have - you're entitled to your share (unless, of course, if you have a greencard. Then they take the money and pocket it!)
About WIC - also not a good example. There, you can make much more. The point is that women, infants & children should all eat healthy. The question more is about Food stamps, Section 8, Medicaid...

GAMZu

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 9:06 pm

rosehill wrote:

It's actually a pretty simple litmus test.
If you fill out the forms telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and you qualify for whatever aid you're applying for, take it and enjoy it.
If you have to lie, or misrepresent yourself, or withhold information, you shouldn't be taking it.
BTW, the Amish don't take Social Security, or any other government assistance.

Except when someone works at a job that basically covers their rent and bills and then they have to scrape by for food... and that job offers no insurance... and they apply for Medicaid, only to be rejected, because a single person, living on their own can only make up to $700 a month to be eligible.
HELLO?
So should that person quit working so she could get the benefits she so badly needs?

These govt agencies set certain standards. Who's to say that ppl above their standards don't need help? Do they really forbid people to earn $ in order to stay on the program?
What if someone is a lazy bum and living it up on the govt money? And then there are hardworking people who are not managing, and can't get help because they work.
What a discouragement from working, if there ever was one!

When I was in school, my mother was a single parent, working full time and taking care of her sick father. Paying rent, tuition, and when my grandfather got into the hospital, she also payed a man to stay with him all day... like $70 a day.

My friend, in the same school, had her mother working as a private attendant for the elderly and doing alterations on the side. Her father worked for car service. All off the books. They had 2 cars. They had a huge apartment. They had Food Stamps and welfare and all the goodies. And they got tuition free because of their "sad" situation.

The same principal refused to grant us a tuition break, and Nechomas Yisroel (org. that assists in tuition) dismissed our case because they knew that I wouldn't go to Public School if they refuse to help like some other kids.

BOTTOM LINE: The crooks get rewarded, and the honest people have the toughest life. And the standards to receive the help are so low that they are impossible to meet legally.

amother

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 10:43 pm

I would never work off the books. Obviously it's stealing. I read the whole thread and it's funny because the OP said originally her H made 100K and 3600 a month. It ended up she was not really telling us the real salary but DH makes 100K but 3600 a month. Really. That's because B"H he has two law degrees but he doesn't have a law job and other debt and the end result is we don't have a car but our rent is $1500 a month and we live paycheck to paycheck and we haven't started paying tuition yet. Now we've got it easy. I'm very into the idea of moving OOT but DH loves his job, doesn't know if he could get a similar salary elsewhere and here we are.

I'm learning each day how to save. I nixed the cleaning lady (but then I got funding but it's still for 4 hours a week) I nixed the water delivery and I'm kicking myself for not doing this sooner (who'd have thought that with a cheap filter NYC water would taste so good) and someone gave me a lot of handmedowns for the kids. I also use ebay and I have no problem buying used clothing so that really makes the clothes cheap. (I'm from a place where buying used clothes at thrift shops is not a big deal and you mamesh can't tell that it's used.)

still, I don't know what I'm going to do when tuition starts happening in a year IY"H. It so far doesn't pay for me to work. All the money would go to babysitters but the appeal of moving to someplace like cleveland, pittsburgh or baltimore is getting bigger...

amother

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 3:32 am

Well said, Gamzu!

Quote:

These govt agencies set certain standards.

And they are definitely not the 'Jewish' standard.

Quote:

So should that person quit working so she could get the benefits she so badly needs?

And that would not even help, cause the amount of money that they give is NOT enough to support a jewish lifestyle. A jewish lifestyle is way more expensive. Kosher food, making simchas, tuition....(and I'm not talking fancy stuff, luxuries...) It is literally impossible to be eligible for anything without some sort of white lie. Cause they'll just tell you if you dont have enough money, send your kids to public school!!
So maybe a family where both parents are working, and they have one or two kids could still manage. But when they have 5, 6, 8, 10....kids, it is impossible to manage. Their income does not go up $10,000 a year for each child.
And to all those saying that 'whoever cant afford to live in NY, should move to Cleveland', do you know what would happen if all those ppl. would move out of Brooklyn and move to Cleveland? The housing costs would skyrocket there too!!

Just another point, the gov. pays for public schools, right? What would happen if all the Jews decide to send their kids to public school? Think of all the millions of dollars a year they would have to come up with! Think of all the millions we're saving them now! These people are not 'taking' any of your tax dollars, they are taking money that is 'coming' to them had they sent their kids to public school.

(Btw, I dont get any gov. programs, but I dont have 10 kids)

sarahd

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 3:58 am

YALT wrote:

Like Shoy18 said: Social Security is YOUR OWN money, and has nothing to do with how much your making. They made the program to help ppl. be able to save money for "the ripe old age". No matter how much you have - you're entitled to your share (unless, of course, if you have a greencard. Then they take the money and pocket it!)

That's actually not so. SS is a benefits program; it's not a pension plan. The money you receive from SS is not the money you paid in; it's the money that working people at the time that you're drawing SS are paying in. The money you paid in went to the senior citizens who were receiving benefits at the time you were working. Most people draw down much more than they paid in.

rosehill

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 9:04 am

Quote:

I certainly sympathise with those in this situation. As a Jewish community, and a wider society, we have an obligation to these people, I'm not denying that.
But the fact is, it's still as wrong to lie/cheat to get these benefits, as it is to come onto my home in the middle of the night with a stocking over your face, and take my piggy bank.

And though I believe sarahd is correct about social secirity, if you're honest when you apply for it, and you qualify, I have no problem.

shoy18

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 9:08 am

sarahd wrote:

YALT wrote:

Bottom line is, the money is still yours, whether you are getting the exact dollars you put in is irrelevant.

If we are really talking about stealing, social security is definitly stealing from us, because of the patterns by the time we are able to receive social security there wont be enough to go around. They want to privatize it and make us take care of the money ourselves!

Ruchel

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 9:24 am

100 000 dollars a year is good, even with a large family and in a big city. But of course if you have to pay a big apartment (because of the big family), nice lifestyle (because life is supposed to be enjoyed), vacations, Jewish school for a large family... It's not HUGE. A house can be 2000 dollars a month, same for Jewish school for 6 kids, that already makes 4000. You have the bills, and to have a bit of fun. Not to mention if vacation is with the kids or they go to summer camps.
But I'm sure you can manage with that.

Some countries help parents of many, even if they earn a lot. Maybe you are elligible for this, OP?
I receive money from the government for a child under 3, for example.
Don't do anything illegal, it's not worth it.

rosehill

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 10:39 am

Quote:

I had calculated that for 6 children in a good Jewish school, it was about 10 000 francs (abt 2000 dollars) a month, and was already horrified...

For 3 kids in elementary school, I am paying more than $30,000 in tuition, registration fees, dinners etc. Add to that hot lunch (if you choose it), text books, stationary, trips, some extra tutoring for one kid, summer camp, etc. High school costs more, I have heard $15,000 per child per year.

Quote:

Our tax dollars that go to the Palestinian Authority or to fund illegal immigrants health-care, education, and the rest of it get me much more annoyed than these tax dollars going to Jews who feel like they need it.

Oh believe me, it annoys me too. I have worked with illegal immigrants in the healthcare system who are getting equipment and services I couldn't afford for my own family. And don't get me started on the Palestinians!!!!
But cheating is STILL gneiva, and taking benefits for which you are not elligible won't take $$$$ away from them.