Someone suggested to me a few years ago that DH may have dormant homosexual feelings, which is why he is not particularly interested in s*x and why is so disgusted by any article or discussion such as this. I mentioned this article to him, and true to form, he criticized me heavily for reading it (especially in Ellul). It's beginning to add up. Has anyone else had similar experiences. AMother for obvious reasons.
Hi I'm the amother whose husband has SSA (same s-e-x attraction). If you suspect that your DH has this, look up Jonah online. Arthur Goldberg is the founder and you can contact him so that he can point you in the right direction. There are others in your situation. Some deny it or keep it a secret and others get help. I will try to set up a private email so that we can communicate.
Just because someone suggested your husband is gay, doesn't make him gay. He could be as-xual, or simply not the "red blooded American" stereotype which of course makes him gay for the women who have to bear a RBA husband. I suggest, if YOU are happy, to not go looking for problems.
That said, all this has been discussed ad nauseam. No one will change their mind: why should they.
On topic: maybe Josh is kinda bis-xual and found one woman who was fine for him and married her. Or not. We'll never know.
I'm sorry some of you heard questionable things about Jonah. I am closely involved with them and the person who runs it. They are doing fabulous things for being the only Jewish organization to help people in this situation. There is no where else for Jewish men with SSA or their wives to turn to because the rest of the Jewish world is in denial that these things exist in their midst. JONAH does a variety of workshops, groups, conventions and shabbatons. Arthur Goldberg has written a book and he actually has a gay son (who is living a homosexual lifestyle. I would love to hear what negative things you have read and why you think Arthur Goldberg is a con-artist so that I can verify it.
Just because someone suggested your husband is gay, doesn't make him gay. He could be as-xual, or simply not the "red blooded American" stereotype which of course makes him gay for the women who have to bear a RBA husband. I suggest, if YOU are happy, to not go looking for problems.
Yeah, but amother did mention that her husband has an extreme reaction to the topic of homosexuality. I do believe that people who get so (unnecessarily) worked up about a topic often have a taavah for that very thing. Like men who feel the need to stand on street corners ranting and spitting at little girls who aren't wearing stockings.
Second thing I wanted to mention: the use of "amother" here. I do understand of course, that an individual would want to maintain their privacy, but given JONAH's history and tactics, how do we know this isn't just a rep from JONAH masquerading as a frum woman? Could "Jews for Yoshke" get access to this forum, masquerading as "amother"?
If the amother was genuinely a frum lady looking for answers - my apologies. But please consult a competent Rav, who would hopefully not dismiss you to con-men rather than genuinely consider your issue.
I personally don't believe in it. Before contacting JONAH I would strongly suggest looking into the organization seriously and try contacting other resources- not reparative therapy.
A quote from one of the articles, about the "statement of principles" from the orthodox rabbis on the place of Homosexuals in the community:
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The statement does refer to the specific therapy that Goldberg preaches by saying that “while some mental health professionals and rabbis in the community strongly believe in the efficacy of ‘change therapies,’ most of the mental health community, many rabbis, and most people with a homosexual orientation feel that some of these therapies are either ineffective or potentially damaging psychologically for many patients.”
This article was interesting, and if their lifestyle works for that couple, then good for them. But lets be honest here...would anyone here really elect to marry someone who could never be attracted to them and was truly attracted to men? Or would you want it for your daughters?
I dont see this as working for most people, and as others have pointed out many of these marriages end as the husband ends up seeking a man.
Second thing I wanted to mention: the use of "amother" here. I do understand of course, that an individual would want to maintain their privacy, but given JONAH's history and tactics, how do we know this isn't just a rep from JONAH masquerading as a frum woman? Could "Jews for Yoshke" get access to this forum, masquerading as "amother"?
If the amother was genuinely a frum lady looking for answers - my apologies. But please consult a competent Rav, who would hopefully not dismiss you to con-men rather than genuinely consider your issue.
You apologies accepted.
Unfortunately, many Rabbanim, even very prominent ones are not too knowledgeable in this area, so it's not so easy to write off these issues to asking them. Do you know that years ago, many Rabbanim who had abused women complaining to them would suggest that they strive to be better wives? Until there is widespread knowledge and research in this area, it's just not as simple as asking a competent rav.
The Arthur Goldberg that I know has never told me or anyone I know that he can "fix" someone and turn them into heterosexual. The first article you posted, which is the only one I had time to read, was written over 2 years ago and I suppose he has grown and realized he can't turn someone homosexual into heterosexual just like that. The Arthur Goldberg that I know is committed to helping men with SSA live a life that they want to, by marrying and having a family. Alan Downing is not the only life coach at JONAH and he denied the allegations made by the 2 fellows, with a clear agenda, in the youtube clip. I have never heard such disturbing things from others that have seen him, including my husband. Reparative therapy is controversial and there is no conclusive proof that it works or doesn't. It's not for everyone, as is any therapy.
Here's what I took from this: there are 2 men who struggle with homosexuality. One of them, Josh Weed, chose to live a religious lifestyle, got married despite that and has a fulfilling life from it. Another one, Chaim Levin, chose to live a religious lifestyle and not to get married, and advocated that. Each of them has their own agenda and proof that what they did works. Chaim Levin is against JONAH because it represents a very different lifestyle than the one he chose. But there are other ways to go about it, and each person is free to choose the lifestyle that works for them. They have the right to be educated about it and the right to know their options.
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This article was interesting, and if their lifestyle works for that couple, then good for them. But lets be honest here...would anyone here really elect to marry someone who could never be attracted to them and was truly attracted to men? Or would you want it for your daughters?
I dont see this as working for most people, and as others have pointed out many of these marriages end as the husband ends up seeking a man.
I personally know women who were told about their husband's SSA before they got engaged and they opted for it anyway. Other women weren't told about it before, and it surfaced after they were married. Either because the man was in denial or because he thought he was "cured". There should be help for families like this, the only option shouldn't be to break up their families.
ooshes, how much experience do you have with this situation to see whether it works for most people or not? Are you a mental health professional who deals with this on an ongoing basis? Unless you are, your opinion is not coming from a place of knowledge. People who have mentioned marriages ending because of the husband seeking a man, well do you know that many marriages have ended because of the husband seeking another woman too? If a person is dedicated to a marriage and fidelity, whether they are attracted to men or women, they will make their marriage work. If not, then yeah, the marriage will end whether they are attracted to men or women.
The first article you posted, which is the only one I had time to read, was written over 2 years ago and I suppose he has grown and realized he can't turn someone homosexual into heterosexual just like that. The Arthur Goldberg that I know is committed to helping men with SSA live a life that they want to, by marrying and having a family. Alan Downing is not the only life coach at JONAH and he denied the allegations made by the 2 fellows, with a clear agenda, in the youtube clip. I have never heard such disturbing things from others that have seen him, including my husband. Reparative therapy is controversial and there is no conclusive proof that it works or doesn't. It's not for everyone, as is any therapy.
That's the most disturbing thing about JONAH.
Regardless of insticts, preferences, etc. people are not animals and are free to make rational decisions, a step above their drives. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with seeking support. For example, if I feel emotionally that I NEED salty food, despite high blood pressure, I may seek assistance to help me deal with the cravings. Perfectly understandable.
But that's not what JONAH's about - helping people control their impulses. JONAH is about shaming gay people into thinking they have a disease, cutely termed "SSA" (which I guess is supposed to sound like "OCD" or "ADD"). Homosexuality is not a mental illness, and there is no such thing as "reparative therapy" or "conversion therapy" as a legitimately recognized form of counseling. It's not controversial, it's just false.
Amother, I wish you and your husband strength in this time, and that things work out for the best for you. I really hope that JONAH doesn't do too much damage in the meantime. I really really believe you should be consulting your Rav here, and not a two-bit con artist.
This article was interesting, and if their lifestyle works for that couple, then good for them. But lets be honest here...would anyone here really elect to marry someone who could never be attracted to them and was truly attracted to men? Or would you want it for your daughters?
I dont see this as working for most people, and as others have pointed out many of these marriages end as the husband ends up seeking a man.
Well, here we go again.
If the only type of marriage you can conceptualize is one based on the passionate-soulmate-HEA paradigm with which most of us were raised, then obviously a marriage won't work if the spouses are not sufficiently attracted to one another.
However, I have to wonder what the difference is between a DH who struggles with SSA and a DH who struggles with being attracted only to young, nubile women. Frankly, I've seen more heartache and family breakup associated with the latter than with the former.
How do we know, when we allow our daughters to marry committed heteros-xuals, that these men won't someday dump them in favor a younger "trophy wife"?
The answer, of course, is that we hope and pray that the initial attraction will develop into a deeper bond that will supersede the effects of time, gravity, childbirth, and too many good meals.
Personally, I think we would do our daughters a big favor by being a tad more critical of the passionate-soulmate-HEA paradigm with which even the most sheltered of us has, to one extent or another, been raised.
As the mother of teenage DDs, I have a lot of conversations about love, marriage, and family. Although, naturally, I am far too old to have anything useful to say, they listen politely. Part of my message -- and I can only pray that it penetrates their brains at some level -- is that a husband cannot be expected to be a best friend, therapist, lover, shopping buddy, banker, maid service, babysitter, escort, and contractor . . . all rolled into one hunky package. Before dating and marriage, it's important to think through what you need in a spouse and what can be placed on the back burner.
I got to thinking about his last night during a particularly persistent bout of insomnia, and I thought back a few years ago to when Diane von Fürstenberg married Barry Diller. Well, talk about scandals! People in the fashion and entertainment businesses didn't know what to think. How could a founding member of Hollywood's alleged "Velvet Mafia" do something so, well, bourgeois and middle-class? How could such a successful, sophisticated woman enter into such a marriage? And more important, why would either one bother?
Well, theories were bunted back and forth at all levels of society, and eventually the same conclusion was reached by all: we don't know, and whatever the basis of their marriage, it's probably none of our business. For once, the jet-set and the Vanity Fair-readers were equally stymied and perplexed . . . and everyone eventually lost interest.
People's needs and desires are complicated, and s-x in only one of many. For a significant number of people, living a religious lifestyle is worth doing whatever is necessary to subjugate those needs and desires. SSA is not the only such temptation and is not necessarily even the most challenging.
Well, Fox, sure, a husband can't be all those things.
But he ought to be some of them.
Or at least one of them.
Lover.
Which he probably won't be if he's, you know, not at all attracted to women.
You think a marriage without zex can be a good one? You think grown-ups can be happy going their entire earthly lives without zex?
We must have different views.
What the HECK does this have to do with Hollywood-romance ideas?! This is the most basic frickin' thing ever! Husbands and wives sleeping together! Hallo! Pretty basic ingredient, don't you think?
You think a marriage without zex can be a good one? You think grown-ups can be happy going their entire earthly lives without zex?
We must have different views.
What the HECK does this have to do with Hollywood-romance ideas?! This is the most basic frickin' thing ever! Husbands and wives sleeping together! Hallo! Pretty basic ingredient, don't you think?
Actually, I wish I could be married - husband, kids, the works - without having to get involved in zex. I don't passionately hate it, but I don't have much use for it. No, I'm not "frigid"; I know how to have org*sms and have done it many times. Yes, it feels great at the time, but it just seems like more trouble than it's worth. I get involved with zex because it's such a good way to make my DH happy, which is something I DO want to do.
If there's not a cute little acronym for this "condition" it's probably because people who have it usually keep a low profile (or should I say "stay in the closet"?). But acronym or not, society makes it clear in a thousand different ways that there's something wrong with us. Society across the board, frum, frei, secular, left-wing, right-wing, blue-collar, intellectual, youth-worshipping, age-respecting, you name it. The most common assumption is that we are "hiding from" our true zexual nature for one reason or another, or wishing to "punish" our actual or potential partners by withholding zex, or both.
I'm very very tired of this attitude, but I'm realizing that I should also be grateful that it isn't enshrined in learned studies and public policy debates and "curative" organizations and sternly compassionate religious admonitions and loud campaigns to single us out for discrimination or protection from discrimination. I hope that there is lots of support and help out there for anyone with, um, non-majority zexuality in case they want it. But I'm just as glad that I'm free not to go there.
(posting anonymously because there are those who know my name here, and I see no value in "coming out" about this)
Well, Fox, sure, a husband can't be all those things.
But he ought to be some of them.
Or at least one of them.
Lover.
Which he probably won't be if he's, you know, not at all attracted to women.
You think a marriage without zex can be a good one? You think grown-ups can be happy going their entire earthly lives without zex?
We must have different views.
What the HECK does this have to do with Hollywood-romance ideas?! This is the most basic frickin' thing ever! Husbands and wives sleeping together! Hallo! Pretty basic ingredient, don't you think?
I've heard that the majority of gay people still have attraction for the opposite s*x, I can't say if it's true or not but if it is then they still can marry the opposite gender I would think and have a happy marriage. Attraction doesn't necessarily mean anything. After all, I think most married people still can be attracted to others, they just don't act on those feelings.
Right, Sequoia, but you're assuming that Kinsey's theory of a spectrum of s-xual attraction is false, and I'm assuming it's true.
So for someone at the complete homos-xual end of the spectrum, such a marriage would probably not be appropriate. However, again accepting Kinsey's hypothesis, that percentage of the population is fairly small as a portion of all of those who experience SSA.
Why is the role of "lover" ipso facto more important than any other role? If s-x were the single most important factor, shidduchim would regularly be made between 18-year-old men and 35-year-old women to ensure compatibility based on likely libidos.
I'm not necessarily in favor of self-identified gay people entering heteros-xual marriages as some sort of "solution" to the conflict between s-xual desires and religious teachings. However, I'm appalled at the lack of historical and scholarly perspective. The concept that people can be tidily categorized as "gay" or "straight" is extremely recent, and it flies directly in the face of Kinsey's analysis.
If, according to Kinsey, 80 percent of us are somewhat gay and somewhat straight, at what point can/should an individual identify him/herself with the socio-economic construct of "gayness"? And are there more factors in the process of self-identification than simply the presence or preponderance of homos-xual attraction?
I would argue, yes, there are too many pressures in our society from all directions to assume that self-identification is made in some objective, fact-based manner. There are a lot of "straight" people who are significantly attracted to members of their gender but choose not to act on it for various reasons. There are also a lot of "gay" people who are significantly attracted to members of the opposite gender but choose not to act on it for various reasons.
Like the BC thread, I don't have a particular dog in this fight; I just hate stereotyping people and shoving them into little boxes.
That said, the ultimate solution, of course, is the Anderson Cooper model: turn loose Honey Boo Boo or any of her tiara-wearing cohort with exquisitely-tuned gaydar and see who gets called a "poodle." No heteros-xual relationships for anyone who can't pass the Honey Boo Boo Poodle Test.
Naw, I don't seriously believe that story, either, but it's so delicious I can't help but love it!
Last edited by Fox on Wed, Aug 22 2012, 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
You think a marriage without zex can be a good one? You think grown-ups can be happy going their entire earthly lives without zex?
We must have different views.
What the HECK does this have to do with Hollywood-romance ideas?! This is the most basic frickin' thing ever! Husbands and wives sleeping together! Hallo! Pretty basic ingredient, don't you think?
Actually, I wish I could be married - husband, kids, the works - without having to get involved in zex. I don't passionately hate it, but I don't have much use for it. No, I'm not "frigid"; I know how to have org*sms and have done it many times. Yes, it feels great at the time, but it just seems like more trouble than it's worth. I get involved with zex because it's such a good way to make my DH happy, which is something I DO want to do.
If there's not a cute little acronym for this "condition" it's probably because people who have it usually keep a low profile (or should I say "stay in the closet"?). But acronym or not, society makes it clear in a thousand different ways that there's something wrong with us. Society across the board, frum, frei, secular, left-wing, right-wing, blue-collar, intellectual, youth-worshipping, age-respecting, you name it. The most common assumption is that we are "hiding from" our true zexual nature for one reason or another, or wishing to "punish" our actual or potential partners by withholding zex, or both.
I'm very very tired of this attitude, but I'm realizing that I should also be grateful that it isn't enshrined in learned studies and public policy debates and "curative" organizations and sternly compassionate religious admonitions and loud campaigns to single us out for discrimination or protection from discrimination. I hope that there is lots of support and help out there for anyone with, um, non-majority zexuality in case they want it. But I'm just as glad that I'm free not to go there.
(posting anonymously because there are those who know my name here, and I see no value in "coming out" about this)
But most people do want to sleep with their husbands, and it's not like there's some magical way of matching up "women who would rather not have zex" with "gay men who want to marry women and live a religious lifestyle."
Also, you sound pretty normally a-zexual. There is nothing abnormal about that. No one ever equated a-zexuality with frigidity. It's just, well, rare.
