Is living in Europe the solution?

Chayary

Sun, Jan 07 2007, 9:26 pm

One doesn't need to run to Europe to get the benefits OP described. Many really "out-of-town" communities have a less expensive lifestyle, as well as a less materialistic mind set than "in town". Real estate costs less, day schools cost less, people don't need to drive fancy cars, make fancy simchas, etc. That being said, depending on the community, you are losing out, both on conveniences, and resources (less chinuch options, shiurim, frum people in general).

yedidya's mom

Sun, Jan 07 2007, 10:14 pm

well, if you want to move to vienna, youll get 2.5 yrs paid maternity leave and 500 euros a month child support for the first child for 3 years and for the following children 150 euro a month. the socialized medical system is pretty good and its a beautiful city.
only problem is there are very few young couples, no eruv and kosher food there is a fortune- a chicken can run you 15 dollars.
any takers Very Happy

Raisin

Mon, Jan 08 2007, 7:20 am

Marsh wrote:

I have many relatives living in england, and yes, the fridges are smaller, all ALL food comes in smaller quantities, and they do make a lot less food on shabbos then us americans, and...I have many friends living there and have eaten out also so its not just my relatives

Maybe you are right about the shabbos food. I remember eating with a family in N.Y. for Shabbos being absolutely shocked at how much food was being served. Everyone got served an individual plate with 3 different types of kugel, chicken, etc. The hosts were all huge btw. Hey but you americans could learn something from us!

Fridges are generally smaller. You can buy those huge american style fridges, but they are expensive. (Not everyone in America has one of those anyway. I certainly did not have one when I lived there. Lots of people have extra freezers etc in the basement.

I have lived in both the U.s. and England and have not noticed any noticible difference in the size of packaging of food. (except spices which come in tiny quantities)

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Jan 08 2007, 8:09 am

Piper wrote:

I would love to check out the community in Scotland. It was interesting seeing pics of men walking to shul wearing tallit and kilts.

Careful, great kilts need tzitit on them :)

With all the anti-semitism and the rise of fundamentalist Islam on the rise all over Europe, if you're looking for less expensive places to live... WHY NOT MAKE ALIYAH?????

aussiegal

Mon, Jan 08 2007, 8:14 am

amother wrote:

[I've heard that people there are MORE show-offy. If they can't afford to take a vacation twice a year, when the rest of Europeans are "on Holiday", they'll hide in their homes and not go to shul, so no one will notice they're home. Is this true?

hmm... I've heard taht people in flatbush/boro park do the same thing if they can't afford a bungalow upstate in the summer.

withhumor

Mon, Jan 08 2007, 11:00 am

We don’t go to the Catskills in the summer (what for, pay rent times two?) and no, I don’t hide out in my house. I love staying home because I get a kick out of thinking ‘I could’ve been in a bungalow shmoiling away without central A/C and I could’ve been schlepping to Woodbourne for a flimsy slice of pizza etc.’ we do that and laugh a lot.

Point is, we have fun visiting our nieces and cousins in the mountains on Sunday and we have a LOT more fun living in our normal houses and the kids have a lot of hours at day camp and yes, they have really nice pools and they don’t get burnt on their backs because most of the pools are either indoors or not directly under the beating sun.

We have great summers in our great homes in Boro Park! GO CITY!

withhumor

Mon, Jan 08 2007, 11:01 am

Marion

Mon, Jan 08 2007, 3:16 pm

mumof1 wrote:

I live in israel and it is the cheapest place to live.
food is cheap.
medicine is socalized, and playgroup is $125 a month.
works for me.

Israel is the cheapest place to live???? Where?

I don't consider food cheap (no such thing as large sizes of ANYTHING...have you bought cottage cheese lately?), and I don't buy expensive anything.
Health care is NOT free, even though it's socialized.
Income tax is amazingly high (our tax free day is in AUGUST). And that's on salaries that are remarkably small (the "average" wage is 7500 shekel - less than $2000 - a month).
They keep reducing the VAT (sales tax) but prices never go down. Everything is tied to the cost of living index, so mortgage payments and the like get higher almost every month.
Even supplemental health insurance (from the kupah or private) doesn't cover more than 50% dental, never mind the 500 shekel MONTHLY deductable on medications that aren't covered by the kupah.
I don't know what you mean by "playgroup", but daycare is definitely more than $125 per month for full day (9 hours). And unless you have someone to pick up your child at 4:00 you can't work full time either.
We don't own a car...but we know some people who do, out of necessity. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't tell you that's cheap either (97% taxes on the purchase of a new car...you're paying almost double the actual price!). And if you don't buy new, you still pay for the test, the license, and insurance every year. (My MIL has an old beat up Peugeot wagon, and she says she pays about 5000 shekel a year in insurance for it; she's not even sure it's worth that much on the market anymore!)

I love living in Israel, but I think to say that it's cheap is misleading.

Ruchel

Tue, Jan 09 2007, 5:07 pm

France here

1- You don't pay or pay very little for tuition or health insurance,
True for health insurance, not true for tuition! also, if you live outside of the three or four main communities, it's hard to find a Jewish school! The cheapest schools are also not the best ones!

2- Summer camp is free, etc..
nope

3- Renting and buying apartments is much cheaper.
it is awfully expensive around Paris - also, the places with many Jews here are either in posh (very expensive) areas or modest (problems with delinquancy, drug dealers around...) ones. If you choose another place, don't expect a mikve or Jewish shops/restaurants in walking distance.

4- There are more parks.....
true

5- another advantage-I hear everyone knows one another and there is comeraderie between all types of Orthodoxy.
Not really, people are rather individualistic and even in small communities you don't talk to everyone... also, Mo and "black hat" don't mix, there are "wars" between the followers of R' X and R' Y...

6- There is less pressure to be rich/ live rich.
possible

JRKmommy

Tue, Jan 09 2007, 5:15 pm

Yael can tell us more, but Montreal is fairly cheap for frum families. Generous government benefits for children, lower tuition than elsewhere (b/c of some gov't funding), cheaper housing costs than Toronto, decent public transit, and the community is predominantly Orthodox. You just need to have some ability to speak French and deal with some crazy politics (which is why Anglo families like mine left).

amother

Tue, Jan 09 2007, 5:29 pm

aussiegal wrote:

amother wrote:

hmm... I've heard taht people in flatbush/boro park do the same thing if they can't afford a bungalow upstate in the summer.

Give me a break- maybe one sicko in Brooklyn doesn't go to shul to hide out.
I've heard in certain cities in Europe, where going on Holiday is a DIN, it's common to daven in Yechidus, if they're embarassed.

shalhevet

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 3:23 am

Marion wrote:

mumof1 wrote:

I live in israel and it is the cheapest place to live.
food is cheap.
medicine is socalized, and playgroup is $125 a month.
works for me.

Israel is the cheapest place to live???? Where?

Perhaps if someone is living off $$$$ from the States it is cheap to live here. If someone has an American/ European salary to spend here it is cheap. OTOH, if you're living off an Israeli income .... Confused

sarahd

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 6:23 am

I don't think life here is cheaper. True, chinuch expenses are slightly lower (about $600 per child per month) and health insurance is certainly cheaper, but food costs 4-5 times what it costs in America. OTOH, people here eat much less than they do in America. Almost no one eats chicken and meat aside from chopped or hot dogs during the week. If you don't have a problem living on pasta (fruits and vegetables are expensive too), you can probably keep your grocery bills about the same as in America.

Rents are comparable - we paid ca. $1300/month for a small 2-BR apartment, and that was considered cheap.

I don't know anyone here who hid at home because they couldn't afford to vacation (otoh, maybe I didn't see them because they were hiding LOL

) It's been my experience that there is much, much less competition in gashmius here than in America and very little conspicuous consumption. So that's a plus in favor of living in Europe.

Ribbie Danzinger

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 7:24 am

Rent depends very much on where you live in Israel - we live in a three bedroom bungalow in a yishuv and we pay about 600 NIS (about $140) a month rent. For the 2.5 bedroom apartment we rent out in a different yishuv we get 1000 NIS (about $235) a month. Obviously, those prices are considered very cheap, even in Israel. As for the yishuvim, generally the prices go up the closer you get to civilization (I.e. the nearest city).

Apartments in the charedi areas of Yerushalayim are very expensive. There are cheaper areas in Yerushalayim and of course, living in other cities is also usually cheaper.

We used to live in Rechovot (about 10 years ago) and paid $450 a month for a four bedroom apartment with huge rooms but when we moved to Yerushalayim we paid $550 for a tiny two bedroom apartment. I imagine that the differences in price remain at about the same relationship.

Sarahd, $600 a month for chinuch sounds to me like an enormous amount (even if it is cheaper than America). I have seven children ka"h and I think that we don't pay much more than that a month for all of them together! (Although we do get some hanachot, some of which everyone is entitled to - like having three children studying in the same institute - gives us 15% discount, fourth child and above for free). We have been told that yeshivah ketana with dorms in Yerushalayim costs about $300 a month. Where do you pay $600?

dilego

Wed, Jan 10 2007, 8:49 am

Well I live in Switzerland and let me tell u tuition is around 600dollars monthly per kid from age 6 upwards and there is not that much of a break,like in eretz,where I lived for 10 years.in generall kosher food and snacks are crazy expensive,not like in france,belguim and england,meat and chicken are far from being cheap.