secular society promotes small families

roza

Thu, Apr 28 2005, 8:57 pm

Quote:

just imagine for a moment, what if secular society began to promote big families as desirable and something to envy, what do you think would happen?

this was from another thread.
Now, I have a question- does the secular society promotes small families?
From my observation- it doesn't. What do you think? ( I am asking about usa society in particular)

Rivka

Fri, Apr 29 2005, 12:39 pm

For some people it wouldn't matter what society would define as normal.
The jewish frum communities most families have more than 2 kids. They have 3-4 or even 5 or 6. The extremly frum have more than that.
Yet you get some people in those communities who have 1 or 2. That is either because they couldn't have more physically or emotionally coudn't cope with more.
So for some communities maybe general society has an impact, for other communities it really doesn't make a difference, you have to do what you are capable of doing, not more coz you will go insane and not less coz you will end up feeling unfulfilled.

Motek

Fri, Apr 29 2005, 3:54 pm

America, for the most part, has zero population growth, which means 2 children (it's zero population growth because the two children replace the two parents).

Some groups have more than two, like Catholics, but 2 is the norm across America.

roza

Fri, Apr 29 2005, 7:40 pm

many non jews here have 3 and more children.
the thread is not about how US population grows, but about if the society promotes small families?
the fact that americans have 2-3 kids is because they can't afford to have more or can't manage more. so it's natural process and not because of promotion.
not only that, motherhood, babies, children are all in a big promotion here.
so I don't feel any pressure from a society to have less children.

Motek

Wed, May 04 2005, 8:34 pm

roza wrote:

many non jews here have 3 and more children.

what's their ethnic group/religion?

Quote:

the thread is not about how US population grows, but about if the society promotes small families?

don't the two go hand-in-hand?

Quote:

the fact that americans have 2-3 kids is because they can't afford to have more or can't manage more. so it's natural process and not because of promotion.

can you back that up?

avigayil

Thu, May 05 2005, 2:00 pm

I grew up Catholic (converted many years ago) and am 1 of 4 kids.
My mom wanted 10 but her body just couldn't handle it and my parents were very stressed out as well ( we were all born in a 5 year time span!)

Most of my friends growing up had MANY sibs, the largest I knew had 13 kids (all Catholics).
None of us went starving either.We all had enough clothes,a roof over our head, and piano and dance lessons to boot (except my brother Tongue Out

)
It wasn't always easy, but we had very giving parents too.
I would like a few more children, we will see what HaShem gives us.

supermom

Thu, May 05 2005, 2:10 pm

I think it has nothing really to do with money because technically speaking the religious ones have more of a problem not the non jews because schooling for a frum perosn costs an arm and a leg while public schools are for free. pants and all are much cheaper then long skirts and shirts. trief food is also cheaper so what financial problems are they having I don't know but for us jews I would say we should technically have only two or three kids with our money problems don't you think?

Yael

Thu, May 05 2005, 3:20 pm

I think that secular society DOES promote small families. if it didnt why would anyone give you a funny look when you walk into a store with 6 little kids trailing you? what are they thinking when they look at you? I doubt they are thinking I wish I had so many kids! most average non jews are thinking "oh my, the poor mother, what is she doing having so many kids? doesnt she know about birth control? poor kids they must not get enough attention. how do they keep them all fed and clothed?" and thats only at 6 kids, now imagine the looks you get at 13 or more kids!!

the view of secular society is that you shouldnt have kids till you are ready to give up your freedom, have enough money to raise them, and are mature enough to educate them. and once you have kids only have as many as you can afford, and you can handle easily, and give yourself enough time after you stop having babies to fully enjoy your life once again. either to go back to work, or whatever.
its as if the few years when your 2.3 kids are young are years of sacrafice and you should get it over with as soon as possible.

Motek

Thu, May 05 2005, 3:38 pm

if secular society promotes large families, then how come mothers on this forum were told about birth control by their doctors after having a baby, without asking for information about it (and at least one mother was told, all the frum women are using it Rolling Eyes

)

Rivka

Thu, May 05 2005, 6:12 pm

Birth control. I was not offered it when I first go married, but after I gave birth that same week the Dr came over to check everything was ok and offered me birth control. This is not because they promote small families but because women who have just given birth do not exactly want to get themselves pregnant so soon after. It isn't healthy.
Most Non -Jews do not have niddah laws so for them if they didn't take any precautions they could have a baby nine months after the last and that is not really normal.
I was not forced, she asked me if I wanted.
I do not get told by the Midwives or the Drs that I should only have 2 kids and there are no advertisements saying "2 is good for you. Do the good thing and have 2 kids and a dog".
It isn't China where people are not allowed more than one child.
People in shops and the street only look at mother with lots of kids and feel sorry for them if they see the kids are unkempt looking and the mother looks drawn and depressed and her clothes are dirty and she looks like she's homeless. And yes there are some like that.
Otherwise they look at the mother with the kids and think wow! She has that many and look how well she copes.
These people also look at mothers with just the one child and if they see the mother mistreating the one child or looking unkempt and the child looks uncared for, will also look and tut.

gryp

Thu, May 05 2005, 6:19 pm

Yael, I agree with you. I come from a large family and my entire life growing up the not-Jewish and not-frum looked at us as if we were crazy. everytime I took the younger kids to the dentist when I was growing up, my dentist made sure to ask me in front of everyone there how many kids, the ages, etc. Rolling Eyes

gryp

Sat, May 07 2005, 9:31 pm

hey Rivka- you dont know my dentist! he was a great family friend and loved us. he was so amazed by our large family that he did make sure to ask me loudly every time we came in front of the entire place how many kids we are in all, our ages, and how many boys/girls. he did many things to embarrass/tease us in a joking way, and all I can say is he was a great dentist and I wish I could find one as good as him for my kids.
how old was I? honestly I dont remember but I guess old enough to take a crew there. my mother would drop us off, I would take everyone up to the eleventh floor to the right office, and then we would call when we were finished to be picked up.
now you all know about my old dentist... Rolling Eyes

AweSumThenSum

Sun, May 08 2005, 2:48 pm

imo, I would divide this issue not between jews and e/o else, but rather between religious people, regardless of which religion, and all others who are secular, meaning that they are not of any religion. most religions preach against birth control, but most religions do have loopholes, leeways, and other options to offer those who cant risk having "unprotected" relations for whatever reason, be it emotional, medical, etc..... honestly, though, if u think about it for a moment, isnt it great that Hashem outlawed birth control as a general rule??????? if we would b allowed to have our children based on when we felt "ready" (I.e. money, maturity, stability, etc...) I think the jewish poplulation would b practically extinct by now.