Boys and girls swimming together under bar mitzva

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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amother

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 12:38 pm

Is it ok for boys and girls to swim together in a pool or to the beach if they are under bar or bas mitzvah?

I am not talking about the 'chinuch' part to it, I'm talking if there is anything wrong according to halacha?

zissy2004

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 12:46 pm

I don't know the halacha per se but I wouldnt let my son from 6 yrs old go mixed swimming but I'm sure other pple will say different.
I think my maximum age would be 4. but I'm chassidish and here its just not done.

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 12:50 pm

I agree with Zissy2004, my maximium age would be 4 for a boy..
and I am litvishe - yeshivishe.

seeker

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 12:59 pm

I think the cutoff age for matters of tznius and gender mixing is lower than bar/bas mitzvah, halachically. Maybe the age of chinuch? Why not AYLOR?

catonmylap

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 1:11 pm

with siblings? or strangers?

I have no issue taking my 5 year old to the mixed pool. It depends what you are comfortable with and if they are sensitive to it. He doesn't see anything remotely s-xual or inappropriate seeing girls in bathing suits. But ask your LOR.

Closer to puberty, I think that sensitivity would be there, and it would be inappropriate already....I can't at this point say a specific age, but before bar mitzva - maybe 9?

busydev

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 1:19 pm

im not sure.

but I do know that there is no issue of yichud as long as a boy and girl are under bar/bas mitzva.

but im not sure that tzniyus would be the same.

I would think that whatever age you hold a girl should start dressing tznius would be the cutoff age. there are machlokos to whether that age is 3,6,7,9 in halacha.

but AYLOR

fiddle

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 1:59 pm

I would say for the boy a bit younger. 13 is too old imho.
girls, I wouldnt care.

Isramom8

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 2:07 pm

For a boy, once he is 13 he isn't allowed yichud with a girl of age 3 and older.
For a girl, once she is 12, she isn't allowed yichud with a boy age 9 and older.
I think this applies to negiah and kol isha too.
I don't know the halachos of mixed swimming.

JackieLion

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 2:11 pm

when we were little (all girls) my mom asked this shayla, and she was told that as long as our bodies look like girls and have not started to develop yet, mixed swimming is fine (obviously, if bas mitzva comes b4 physical maturity, that would b a cutoff too)

r_ch

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 2:21 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

AFAIK negiah applies for a girl starting from 9, for a boy starting from 6.

r_ch

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 2:24 pm

OP you didn't reveal your shitta:) According to what I live mixed beaches are a no go for a boy from 3 and up and for a girl from 6.

amother

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 2:43 pm

op here,

I was brought up going to the beach in a bathing suit until I was Bas Mitzvah.

But I noticed that not many people do that, and I was wondering if its for chinuch or if it says anywhere in halacha that kids after a certain age can't go to the beach or a mixed pool.

I always thought it was until Bar/Bas Mitzvah.

shalhevet

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 2:46 pm

What do you mean without the 'chinuch' part?

Leaving chinuch aside, your child under bar/bas mitzva can eat treif, write or turn the lights off/on on Shabbos, eat chometz on Pesach (if it doesn't belong to you), skip the seder, chanuka candles and sukka and megilla.

They can do anything since it is the parents' obligation of chinuch and not the child's mitzva obligation. The parents have a mitzva of chinuch.

Aside from anything else, I also learned that a boy should not be at a mixed pool if he will remember what he saw when he is older (we hold that is about 3-4).

myself

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 2:47 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

Don't the halachos of yichud begin when the boy is 9? I always remember hearing that babysitters are problematic once you've got a nine year old son. Am I wrong?

And regarding swimming, 9 would definitely be a cut-off though I personally wouldn't allow it from earlier.

black sheep

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 2:50 pm

yes it is okay. there is nothing wrong with it according to halacha. you said you're not asking about chinuch, but the reason people don't do it is chinuch. on the other hand, I think that for chinuch it is good to teach children that halachically it is okay until bar/bas mitzvah.

chocolate moose

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 3:02 pm

Actually, swimming is more problematic than other activities. Even if everyone is fully clothed. For those who bike or run in public in places meant for that, that's ok, but swimming is stricter

Ask your Rov

Chalomatok

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 3:08 pm

I'm curious as to why many of you would think no for a boy at a younger age than for a girl. I would have thought that a girl should not go mixed swimming starting from a younger age, let's say 3, than a boy

Doesn't it make more sense for your boys to be going swimming with you, and other women, let's say till age 6 or whatever age you feel is right, rather then sending your daughters to go swimming with men at that age?

I'm viewing it not as what the kids will see in others, but rather as cultivating the sensitivity within the kids themselves, and for girls, I'd start cultivating that sensitivity to tznius earlier, to not be exposing their bodies etc.
(and yes, I will iy"h be dressing my daughters completely tznius from the age of 3)

Do I make any sense?

busydev

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 3:13 pm

re: hilchos yichud.

if there is a 12yo boy and an 11yo girl in the same place there is no issur of yichud.

HOWEVER

if there is a 9yo boy and 12+yo girl then there is an issue (which is the common babysitting yichud problem)

this also works with a 3yo girl and a boy over bar mitzva.

(some ppl hold the ages are younger/older. but this is what I learnt)

but as long as BOTH of them are under bar/bas mitzva there is no problem.

r_ch

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 3:15 pm

Chalomatok wrote:

Completely. Those who follow the hallochah, not taking a girl above 6 to a mixed beach do dress them tznius. It means not exposing her body, but see exposed bodies of others so to say. In fact you know how it goes, it's written this way but people go further and don't bring a girl above 3, as simple as that. But pure halochah is this. In my opinion it means a state of mind and its ability to be affected by this or that event. Probably it means that boy's memory and state of mind is lightly affected and leaves a lasting effect already starting from 3 y.o.

joy613

Tue, Nov 20 2012, 8:51 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

I don't think negiah and kol isha follow the same rules as yichud. They are less strict as far as I remember.

Regarding negiah, I can't remember what age I heard it begins, but it was past 3.

And the same with kol isha. I think it starts at bas mitzvah. Maybe earlier? but I'm pretty sure not at 3.

This I heard from someone who is really strict about halacha. But I will double check.

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