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Forum -> Parenting our children

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chocolate moose

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 10:44 am

We were discussing at a shiur I attend, that kids of today get such good thorough educations, how can they really doubt HaShem etc., the women of old for example could hardly read Hebrew yet their Yiras Shomayim was so great . . . .

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 10:55 am

chocolate moose wrote:

exsctly for the reason that you wrote, that the education has very little to do with it. I think that children at risk, not all of the time, dont worry, I am not making a blanket statment, but I think that many children at risk, there is something not 100% at home, judaism wise. I know a family that the parents do every single chumra in the book, but when it comes to infusing their children with a love for HaShem and all things Jewish, nothing, absolutely nothing there. you would never know that the children even grew up in a jewish home, besides for the kippa. I think that kids who feel that there is something lacking go off the derech.

I think that it has almost nothing to do with education. I think that if a child would receive a bad jewish education, that could even make them want to search.

those are just my opinions though.

MMEC123

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 11:11 am

Not necessarily. Home definitely can play a role, but I think we've lost focus when it comes to education. We're trying to throw more and more information without giving the values with it.

The person giving over the Torah to children also makes a difference. Don't get me wrong, there are many, many wonderful mechanchim out there but there are some who...well, use your imagination. DH told me an idea mentioned in (I think it was) one of the Vilna Gaon's seforim- back in his time (and also true today) he was astounded by the fact that to become a shochet, a person had to go through tons of training and testing and retesting, yet to be a teacher, one just had to say "I'm a teacher". Where is the sense in that?

Of course I'm not downplaying the importance of a competant shochet but WHO are we letting near our children?? Are we sure they are yarei shamayim? Do we check that they will have unconditional love for our children no matter what?

How many times has a teacher driven his students (even if it is JUST ONE!) further away from yiddishkeit because of one little thing or another?

I guess I'm a bit passionate about this because I have a sibling who had trouble with a certain teacher (this teacher felt that the kids didn't need to do normal kid things and threw more and more learning at them) and my sibling will never be the same. The fact that this sibling even keeps Shabbos still is a neis (though the sibling did not keep it for a while). And not only that, the year my sibling was driven off the deep-end (left the school because of this teacher, etc.) there were at least ten other students of this teacher that all left for the same reason. TEN PRECIOUS JEWISH CHILDREN! Do you realize how huge that is? And on one teacher's cheshbon? How many other times do we let this happen?

So yes, home environment may have an impact but so can the school and the type of education. (Sorry to rant for so long!)

chocolate moose

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 11:36 am

Oh, I'm not against concerned parenting OR education! I just there's more to it, that's all.

Mevater

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 11:52 am

MMEC123 wrote:

Not necessarily. Home definitely can play a role, but I think we've lost focus when it comes to education. We're trying to throw more and more information without giving the values with it.

I agree 100%. I think a parent can be as loving as possible, but children today are at school so many hours, boys learning Gemara, girls learning Chumash, Navi, teitches and Meforshim, and are tested every day in these subjects and are pressured to Shteig, Shteig, Shteig, with very little discussion of Midos, which is more important than regurgitation of Meforshim and Teitches etc.. Many child at risk experts say, that most teachers talk to 25% percent of the class, those that are the top achievers. All other students suffer low self esteem because they can't measure up. This is damaging for life when qualities and talents in the lesser achievers aren't brought out and these children get little or no admiration at school, in front of peers. Every child has strengths and talents that have to be brought out and perceived as equally important to marks on Farhers and tests. I've heard this point made for years, and yet nothing constructive has been done about it. We are, as a result, unfortunately, killing Yiddishe Neshamas every day.

amother

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 12:29 pm

A few weeks ago, in my city there was a program for teachers in the nonfrum schools about belief in Hashem. The person who ran the program is frum.She was saying that our kids have questions that don't get answered. How can they hve yiras shamayim when they have no concept of what it is? She said most of the kids don't know what "tzelem Elokim" means. We took an informal survey outside shul of a few 8th graders. They "heard" of it but had no concept.Her thought is if Hashem isn't discussed, what do we expect?

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 12:51 pm

amother wrote:

unfortunaltely it is not just the non frum kids who dont know what tzelem elokim is, and thats just an example. like one of the previous posters said, the teachers of today, for boys and girls it seems, wasnt the students to learn learn learn and not so much take in hashkafa and other things other than knowing the texts of things.
I am not sure what I think is MORE important, the textual learning or understanding HaShem and things about yehadut. I would think the later.

amother

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 1:00 pm

Sorry I wasn't clear. Our informal survey was of frum kids who didn't know. They also felt they either couldn't ask questions or they were being brushed off.

gryp

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 1:39 pm

Quote:

but WHO are we letting near our children?? Are we sure they are yarei shamayim? Do we check that they will have unconditional love for our children no matter what?

amother

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 1:46 pm

I know people that have become disallusioned by what they saw in Yeshivah.

suomynona

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 2:03 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

how can they really doubt HaShem etc.,

Most people don't go off the derech because they have doubts. They do it because they don't want to be frum for whatever reason.

Mevater

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 2:06 pm

MMEC123 wrote:

Of course I'm not downplaying the importance of a competant shochet but WHO are we letting near our children??

I think the teachers are just instituting school policies. It's the school program/policy that is causing the problems. Cover more and more material, have more and more kids get top grades......

They don't consider the feelings and self worth of the kids who just can't be the top percentile.

These kids feel these frum Mechanchim don't care about them and develop bad feelings toward Rabbonim and Frumkeit.

They feel it's only marks. The Mechanchim are just carrying out school policy. The schools, and therefore Mechanchim, aren't looking to find the hidden jewel (strengths and talents) in every child. You either do well on your Farher/tests or you don't- nothing else matters!

chocolate moose

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 2:25 pm

Laziness, you mean. Not b/c they hve real doubts.

amother

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 5:28 pm

Quote:

Most people don't go off the derech because they have doubts. They do it because they don't want to be frum for whatever reason.

Many many kids who go off are of the brightest and most inquisitive and most teachers, mechanchim and parents are ill eqipped to answer any svakos and this kids are just put off by the lack of understanding of a relationship with Hashem. It seems with many frum today its the exterior that counts. No relationship with g-d equals no need to be frum to these kids.

greenfire

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 5:33 pm

You know I am getting sick of this BS hearing over and over again that there must be something wrong with the parent - my kids are the ones who make the situation difficult - cause they tend to be selfish and self-centered - something that I never was and hope to never be.

amother

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 5:48 pm

Is everyone here under the impression that few or no frum jews deal with real doubts? Not so much doubts of gods existance but doubts of the truth of rabbanims teachings ect. escpecially with the machlokeses, the stealing, the programs abuse, the emphasis on exterior, and the lack of depth, and love of yiddishkeit being instilleled within them in schools and homes(as a manifestation of the schooling the parents have had).

shayna82

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 6:11 pm

greenfire wrote:

it may have nothign to do with how a parent rates when it comes to certain behavior, its the parenting that makes the difference. the style, the praise, the critics, the comfort, the love...

shayna82

Thu, Jan 25 2007, 6:15 pm

growing up I saw how differnt I was treated just based on the mere fact that im a daughter of bt's, versus the "kolel" families who were sooooooooooooo learned. (catch my exagaration). and I think that is sooo wrong.

Motek

Sat, Jan 27 2007, 9:47 pm

suomynona wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

how can they really doubt HaShem etc.,

Most people don't go off the derech because they have doubts. They do it because they don't want to be frum for whatever reason.

I agree with you suomynona.

Quote:

Many many kids who go off are of the brightest and most inquisitive

and many are average and some are below average

Quote:

and most teachers, mechanchim and parents are ill eqipped to answer any svakos

most? in the world? how could you possibly know that?

healthymama

Sat, Jan 27 2007, 9:59 pm

Quote:

Most people don't go off the derech because they have doubts. They do it because they don't want to be frum for whatever reason.

I think this is something that frum people convince themselves about. Oh, those frei off-the-derech meshugganes ! They are just so lazy, don't feel like doing all the hard things, so they pretend to have doubts !

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