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Today's education v. Kids at Risk
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Motek




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 24 2007, 7:17 pm
Ruchel wrote:

But maybe a very secure home and parental explanations about hypocrisy can lessen the bad feelings.


yup
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Tzippy




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 26 2007, 11:42 am
Today times require that children are taught that one can't judge Judaism by its adherents. That is because we are humans. My nine year old said this to me: "Why is a tzaddik called a tzaddik after the letter tzaddik which equals 90? Why isn't he called a kof which stands for 100 as in 100%? Because a tzaddik's actions are 90% right-if they would be 100% right,why would he need to come down here to olam hazeh-he can be an angel!" (This is a realization he came to on his own, not from me or a rebbe)
So kal vechomer the average Jew is maybe doing everything 50% right,and maybe 50% wrong. Who is teaching children that humans don't do sins and are perfect? Sure we strive to emulate Hashem, but we are not perfect! When encountering bad middos, and outright aveiros, why not teach our children this concept instead of running to be judgmental of actions which can be construed as "hypocrisy! If they are taught that Torah is a tree of life this will sway them to keep it stronger and encourage more Ahavat Yisroel.
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amother






Post  Thu, Jul 26 2007, 1:04 pm
Tzippy this is very true but when children or teens are deeply hurt by s/o in a position of authority &/or respect these words will not satisfy them. Usualy what happens is, & obviously this is not the only reason kids go off the derech, the person of note is believed & the child is made to feel rotten in spite of the fact it should often be the other way. Even mild infractions of a Rebbi can lead to big problems for example.
I know a man who had these same doubts as an adult. His wife refused to take a get & she went around telling e/o he wouldn't give one etc. There were only 2 rabbis "on his side" ,1 who wouldn't get involved & the one who was writting the get. He knew the man showed up to give it & she kept refusing the hazmanah. Anyway he was also prepared to go off the derech. In this case as a logical adult his one rav "ally" told him what you said Tzippy.But imagine telling this to a teen who is already troubled.
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Motek




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 26 2007, 3:23 pm
Tzippy wrote:
(This is a realization he came to on his own, not from me or a rebbe)


very impressive!

great post

amother wrote:
Even mild infractions of a Rebbi can lead to big problems for example.


no question, they have a bigger achrayus and it makes a greater chilul Hashem the bigger they are

Quote:
imagine telling this to a teen who is already troubled.


why wait that long
it could be a discussion at age 9, like tzippy illustrated
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chavamom




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 26 2007, 8:31 pm
I'm willing to post under my own screen name here. This is not just theoretical for me. How about a kid who was accused of something someone else did and when rebuked by a "chashuv" person (for something he never did in the first place!) was told "you look like a shagetz and act like a shaygetz - I'm not even sure you are Jewish!". How about when a kid has racked up a few such experiences? B"H, my kid is on the derech but boy does he have issues about those in black hats, wants nothing to do with "that world". I think the fact that he has a loving home has done worlds to protect him but it certainly can't erase a message that has been sent to him by the "velt" over the years, and it's one of hypocrisy and yup, cruletly.
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 26 2007, 10:35 pm
Chavamom, is there any way to reverse his experiences, ie. have him come into contact with black hatters he can respect and trust. Is that possible at all?

I'm really upset for you. How dare someone talk to another person like that, how much more so a kid who is still growing in his emotional and spiritual maturity!!! I wouldn't respect anyone like that, it sounds to me like he's full of himself and his position. If someone spoke to my kid like that, I'd have his head!
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chavamom




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Aug 03 2007, 12:10 am
GR wrote:
Chavamom, is there any way to reverse his experiences, ie. have him come into contact with black hatters he can respect and trust. Is that possible at all?

I'm really upset for you. How dare someone talk to another person like that, how much more so a kid who is still growing in his emotional and spiritual maturity!!! I wouldn't respect anyone like that, it sounds to me like he's full of himself and his position. If someone spoke to my kid like that, I'd have his head!


Yes, well when I spoke to another rabbi they told me "everyone knows that he's abusive, he's been that way for 30 years". Great. And why didn't anyone tell me? People like to talk about everything except what they really should be talking about. As to providing him with other experiences, it's tough. One negative experience of that magnitude takes a whole lot of positives to overcome and when you have a kid who now has an attitude, much of "the velt" is not so eager to provide it. One guy who talked with him, ds came home and said "he talked to me like I was about to go off the derech. just 'cause I'm not wearing a white shirt and jacket doesn't mean I don't believe in Hashem!" Didn't really help the situation.
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Aug 03 2007, 8:18 am
I don't know what "type" of people are in your community, ie. how many black hatters, but I meant not so much getting Rabbis to speak to him, but more being put into situations where he is around black hatters who he can get a favorable impression of. I don't know how you can work it out practically, obviously I don't know what your kid's day is like, but maybe it would mean him being invited over for a Shabbos meal by a family like that, helping out, volunteering, or getting small jobs with someone he would get a good impression of, or whatever. I
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greenfire




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Aug 03 2007, 8:31 am
chavamom wrote:

Yes, well when I spoke to another rabbi they told me "everyone knows that he's abusive, he's been that way for 30 years". Great. And why didn't anyone tell me? People like to talk about everything except what they really should be talking about. As to providing him with other experiences, it's tough. One negative experience of that magnitude takes a whole lot of positives to overcome and when you have a kid who now has an attitude, much of "the velt" is not so eager to provide it. One guy who talked with him, ds came home and said "he talked to me like I was about to go off the derech. just 'cause I'm not wearing a white shirt and jacket doesn't mean I don't believe in Hashem!" Didn't really help the situation.


I so hear you - the velt is nutso - let's help the poor kid by treating him like he doesn't belong ... how on earth is this going to help ... the problem is that he doesn't want to belong to such narrow minded abusiveness ... the thing is for him to keep strong despite all these people and make his connection to Hashem for himself - it's not about the outer garb but rather the inside - his mentshlichkeit ... tell him I said so Mr. Green Mr. Green
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faigie




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Aug 03 2007, 8:44 am
wow where do I begin..........
a think there are a few factors to consider here.
1. the boys schools in brooklyn give a pitiful education, for the most part, in english. the focus is on gemarah. kudos are given to the best learners. if a kid isnt a great learner, but has other talents, they dont have a chance to be recognized.
2. religiosity does NOT equal spirituality. IMHO kids cant thrive in an environment which does not foster spirituality along with the religious training.
3 I hate to say this, but it needs saying. some schools make sure to cater to the kids whos parents donate the most money.
4. I think it all boils down to self esteem. if a kid is tortured and isnt given the opportunity to shine, their gonna have issues.
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chavamom




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Aug 03 2007, 12:14 pm
faigie wrote:

4. I think it all boils down to self esteem. if a kid is tortured and isnt given the opportunity to shine, their gonna have issues.


There ya' have it in a nutshell.
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