Baalei Teshuva Raising Frum/Chasidishe Kids

Motek

Tue, Sep 21 2004, 3:56 pm

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When it comes to raising children, we dare not lose sight of the reality that many, if not most, baalei teshuva grew up in a world that is very different from the Torah community into which they are integrating. The idea that parents welcome the responsibility for raising children, devote their time and energy to this task, and view it as the noblest achievement of their lives, is very far from the norm in secular society. Add to this the beracha of large families that has become commonplace in our community, bli ayin hara, and you have a situation that is, on the one hand, tremendously appealing to many baalei teshuva, but which also is totally different from their own experiences and models.

In truth, the warmth and stability of the religious home is probably the most important factor in attracting baalei teshuva, and the sense that our communities are ready and willing to become their “family.” But once they cross the threshold of their own home, and it becomes their responsibility to create that warmth and security, they’re on their own, to a great degree.

A very sincere and intelligent parent, who together with his wife is coping with the challenges of teenage kids, expressed almost wistfully, “We kind of thought that you become frum, and Hashem raises your kids….” In other words, their own upbringing wasn’t necessarily complete as a model to follow, and the people all around seem to be having decent success in raising large families, so it must “just happen” when you’re following the Torah! As we know all so well, it doesn’t “just happen.” Tremendous work, sensitivity, and tefilla are necessary. But this awareness isn’t always a given for a young man or woman who is sincerely dedicated and committed to Torah, but may not be fully aware of the emotional and attitudinal skills that will be so vital in the years ahead. Perhaps the greatest gift that the community can provide is to serve as caring mentors and models for this crucial task.

(excerpted from an article called, "Helping Baalei Teshuva Be Themselves" by Rabbi Ben Tzion Kokis)

comments anyone?

Motek

Mon, Oct 11 2004, 1:34 pm

written (not by me but) by a male B.T.

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BTs have to be careful when it comes to chinuch -- especially in the home. My wife and I try very hard to NOT talk about our past, especially in front of our children. WHen a BT talks about his/her past, their child might think -- "look at my tatty, he did this and than and now he is frum, so I can do that, too." maybe this is extreme, but such thoughts could occur.

For example, we were driving in the neighborhood where my wife grew up and my daughter asked why isn't mommy friends with her old (non-jewish friends)? We answered, that when Mommy became frum she had nothing in common with these people and they do not talk and act they way we do. We explained that we have to surround ourseves with Kedushah, including friends who will help us strengthen our Kedushah.

In terms of non jewish books etc: NO Lubavitcher household should have non jewish books, music, magazines, videos (including Walt Disney) in their house. They simply teach our children and ourselves bad things. DO you think the Rebbe had Newseek in his house? Do you think the Rebbe would let a child watch Lion King?

Shortly after getting married, to clean up our house, my wife and I took all of our non-jewish books, magazines and videos and gave them to the Brooklyn Library. Such things will not make our house a true Chabad House.

BTs face another challenge: Music. BTs or Gairim grew up listening to non jewish music and associate certain things with certain songs. We are often tested with Machshavos zaros b/c of our past and we have eliminate these thoughts without verbalizing them.

Does this stuff make sense?

zuncompany

Mon, Oct 11 2004, 2:46 pm

I never thought Hashem just raises my kids and they just become frum. I also find it totally offensive to tell a BT to never talk about their past. I did NOTHING I am ashamed of (I honestly was a goodie goodie though before I was frum). There are things in my past I wish not to repeat, but I am not ashamed and will not hide. My husband and I find nothing wrong with being honest when our children are older. I have talked to a lot of my friends whose parents are BTs... from my findings... those whose parents pretended the past didn't happen and were all strict and closed about things, their kids are the messed up ones frying out and rebelling. Those whose parents were honest and said, yes, I did this and that, and this is why I think its a bad idea. Those that are a little more open and flexable are the kids who are amazing, Chassidishe, and have learned from their parents past. I don't think kids need to know everything, but they shouldn't know nothing.
Yes, we didn't go through the system, but guess what... doesn't make me a bad parent. I can use what I have learned from my past to help my kids. I have a strong english education and my husband is a mathmatician and engineer. My children will know math and english. Why? I think its important to be able to able to balance a checkbook and when they are shluchim (G-d willing one day) to be able to speak correctly and make advertisements that use correct grammer. As for their jewish education... just means I need to work a little harder. One reason why we are so willing to move and give up my husbands wonderful job (even at a time like this with the economy) is because we want to live in a place that not only will the kids get good chinuch, but so that we will so we can good chinnuch. That way WE can keep up with them and help them.
Just because I didn't grow up in a large family doesnt mean I can't raise one. Someone told me early on in my frum life to find a family and learn everything I can from them. To be there as much as I can for the day to day things. I learned how to cook, keep a house in order, and how to give time to each child. I feel prepared for the job. This is one reason why my husband and I decided to keep me at home. This way I have more time and energy to raising our kids.
Oh and on how to "relate" to non-frum family members... why do we have to relate to them any differently? They are jews just like us.
Sara

Rochel Leah

Tue, Oct 12 2004, 11:16 am

Sara, well said....my parents are BT's. They never hid their past from us...they would always tell us...."you are so lucky to be able to read rashi or keep shabos from a young age ...." I am very close with my non religeous nad some non jewish relations. they respect me and just being myself they have learned from me.....I look up to my parents, I think they are on a higher level on me...seeing their families and what they came from and who they are today. I don't think a ffb could make such a drastic change as bt.

I know a couple of people whose parents hid them from their past and they know their parents are bt and say "if they did it why cant I?" and they tried it..

my mother still keeps in contact with her high school friends ....why not? just because you became frum doesnt mean you cnt stay friends with someone and you could even be a positive influence....

Motek

Tue, Oct 12 2004, 12:32 pm

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I never thought Hashem just raises my kids and they just become frum.

but the BT the author knows, did think so, for whatever reasons

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I also find it totally offensive to tell a BT to never talk about their past.

you are taking offense at something that nobody said!

the second post, is something a BT wrote. It is how he and his wife think it's best to raise their kids. He's referring to those things which are antithetical to Yiddishkeit. Of course you can disagree with him, but surely he too is entitled to parent as he sees best!

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I did NOTHING I am ashamed of (I honestly was a goodie goodie though before I was frum).

well, so there you have it - you have nothing to be ashamed about, and you're fortunate!

many other BT's wish they could say the same thing

maybe then, you're not the one to tell BT's with a past they're ashamed of, what they should or shouldn't tell their kids

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those whose parents pretended the past didn't happen and were all strict and closed about things, their kids are the messed up ones frying out and rebelling. Those whose parents were honest and said, yes, I did this and that, and this is why I think its a bad idea. Those that are a little more open and flexable are the kids who are amazing, Chassidishe, and have learned from their parents past.

that's your experience

many others have different experiences
they have found that sharing their pre-frum antithetical to Yiddishkeit experiences with their kids, especially when told with nostalgia rather than regret, has resulted in their kids deciding:

If mom/dad had all that fun and then became frum, I'll do the same thing! I'll go out and see the world, and then I'll come back.

also keep in mind - there are other factors that contribute towards rebellion besides openness vs. keeping things to yourself

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Yes, we didn't go through the system, but guess what... doesn't make me a bad parent.

nobody said it did!

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I can use what I have learned from my past to help my kids.

that can be great, depending on what it is and how it's used

the Rebbe was very opposed to teaching ANY secular studies to children under 9, and he hoped that this would extend way beyond that (see separate thread on this)

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One reason why we are so willing to move and give up my husbands wonderful job (even at a time like this with the economy) is because we want to live in a place that not only will the kids get good chinuch, but so that we will so we can good chinnuch. That way WE can keep up with them and help them.

admirable!

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Just because I didn't grow up in a large family doesnt mean I can't raise one.

absolutely true

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Someone told me early on in my frum life to find a family and learn everything I can from them.

that was brilliant advice!
I know a convert who converted in England, and she was required to live with a frum family for a year before converting. She said she says Shema with her kids 20+ years later the way she heard the woman she stayed with say it. She learned the Jewish cycle, the holidays etc.
excellent advice for BT's too

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This is one reason why my husband and I decided to keep me at home. This way I have more time and energy to raising our kids.

also admirable and a terrific move

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Oh and on how to "relate" to non-frum family members... why do we have to relate to them any differently? They are jews just like us.

so you think there's no difference between your kids relating to grandparents who don't say brachos before they eat (which the kids notice) and don't know how to read Hebrew, who don't know the things that three year olds learn in a frum school, and kids relating to frum grandparents?

come on!

obviously we relate to all Jews as Jews, that has nothing to do with this

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and how would a FFB person relate to such relatives?

same issues arise, it's just more prevalent with BT's

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or an ultra-chassidishe lady to her sister who went off the derech?

do you think it might be a different situation when someone who was always religious drops out as opposed to a tinok sh'nishba - someone who G-d put into a situation in which he or she was deprived of a proper chinuch?
again, irreligious siblings or other family members are prevalent with BT's

Motek

Tue, Oct 12 2004, 12:44 pm

here's something a BT shared:

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Oi! I just learned that my sister-in-law just got engaged...to her gentile boyfriend. My wife has been trying to talk her out of it since she started seeing this guy, but to no avail. She grew up in a family empty of Yiddishkeit (as did my wife, but somehow my wife always had a strong pintele Yid), and is not even curious in any way.

My wife has been trying to get her mother to say something to the sister for some time, but the mother says "she knows how I feel" about the matter, but in the end she "just wants her to be happy."

My wife is now considered by her entire family as the bad guy for "raining on the parade".

The unholy event is scheduled for two weeks from today. My wife raised the issue with our four and a half year old (because nothing escapes his notice). She explained to him how children of a Jewish mommy are also Jewish, even if the Abba is not Jewish.

As I was putting him to bed, he mentioned his aunt, that she was not marrying a Jewish man. I asked him how he felt about it and he replied "Sad. It feels like Tisha B'Av when that happens--right, Abba?"

this is a sad and prevalent situation with the intermarriage rate sky-high, and something BT parents have to contend with sometimes
what to say to the kids? why aren't they attending the wedding? why won't they be visiting them (if the rav says not to)? how to relate to non-Jewish cousins that are the product of a Jewish father and gentile mother

zuncompany and others: Jewish publications often have articles about BT's which are very inspiring and fascinating. Lately though, there have been articles in various publications that are bringing up and discussing problems that BT's are experiencing. It's great to be mekarev someone and thrilling when they settle down and raise a frum family, but more and more people in the helping/teaching professions are seeing that BT's need additional and different guidance in chinuch decisions. This is not meant to be patronizing or in any way insulting!

please see these articles from the Jewish Action magazine as an example of some of the concerns being aired:

http://www.ou.org/publications.....G.PDF

zuncompany

Tue, Oct 12 2004, 1:39 pm

And I find plenty of problems with the way some FFBs are raising their kids. There are loads of problems there too! I think by calling out BTs it is insulting. Why focus on the BT's cause everyone can use those lessons.
I was talking to someone yesterday who also happens to be a BT and she asked me, Sara, will we ever be fully accepted in our new world? Will they ever completely consider us one of them? When dating there were some names brought up for me. They happened to be FFBs. You know what the parents said when it was brought up? She is a BT there is no reason to look into her. I still laugh today cause I know who one of them married and well... I am more machmir than her. But she is a FFB, so thats what matters. I know someone who is a FFB born to BTs and a shidduch was brought up for her. The parents said no cause her parents were BTs! B"H not every family is like this, but it happens. Not a problem to makarv us, but we don't want you trying to marry our kids.
The makarving and after chinnuch is one for a different place and one I will not get into with you because I do not want to say anything I will regret later.
About the intermarriage issue... it is one, but it is an issue in all families. Not just BT's families. However it is something I am dealing with with my own sister. I was told by one Rabbi told ignore the whole thing and just keep inviting my sister over. Another told me to constantly tell her how important it is to marry a jew. However I emailed a couple who my husband and I are very close with and go to when we need good advice. She told me... "He said to be
nice and be chassidim. You have to keep the
communication with your sister open. Hashem runs the
world and you can educate her by letting her love your
children. Try to think of yourselves as shluchim in
the real sense an know that it is hard to help family,
sometimes,mostly. The more you reflect how a jew can
live the more she will see it as possible and if she
is estranged from you---G-d forbid, the non-jewish
world will be more palatable. Also speak to a Rabbi
you trust and seek advice. Zu and his brother have a
wonderful aunt- don't discourage that relationship."
I have never heard of a rav saying not to stay in touch with family if this happens. Jokingly I told my husband that wouldn't it be great if I was 6-9 months preg when my sister gets married... than there is no question of why we can't come. I am not allowed to travel cause I am high risk:) By treating my sister any other way than treating her like my sister will only make her run further away from Judaism. Same with my kids treating her future kids any differently.
About being open with your kids... who said it wouldn't be said so that it wouldn't encourage their behavior. When I have a daughter one day G-d willing and she asks me why I wore pants (something I won't hide... besides to many pictures of proof...haha) I will tell her I didn't know any better. However dressing snious makes me feel better about myself and more secure and whole. That now that I know better, I chose to dress snious for all of those reasons and most importantly because Hashem told us to.
I don't think English and Math are bad things. They make you more productive in this world. Sometimes I look at advertising for chabad houses and I am embarressed how they could put some of the stuff out. Did they have someone proof read it? Balancing one's checkbook is so important. If they don't know basic math how can they figure out miser?
Sara

Yael

Tue, Oct 12 2004, 2:17 pm

I agree with you zun, there are plenty of ffb families who's kids turn out badly, and BT kids who turn out great. as well as vice versa. I dont think there should be any seperation between BT and FFBs. yes they each have there own unique challenges when raising their kids, but one doesnt have it harder than the other. I admire BT for changing themselves in a such a great way. and that strength will be admired by their children as well and leave a good impression of Judaism on them b/c of it.
I think its terrible when a FFb family has the view that just cuz I'm frum my kids will automatically stay frum without putting any effort into teaching their kids about the importance and reason why we are frum. I think the main reason kids from FFb families fry out is b/c they dont know why they should be frum, other than its what they've been doing all along so why change.

Motek

Tue, Oct 12 2004, 2:53 pm

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And I find plenty of problems with the way some FFBs are raising their kids. There are loads of problems there too!

I agree!

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Why focus on the BT's cause everyone can use those lessons

the reason is, as the articles in the link I provided would explain further, is that people who work with kids are noticing that children of BT parents have a high rate of rebellion and behavioral and educational problems

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yes they each have there own unique challenges when raising their kids, but one doesnt have it harder than the other

Those in the field disagree. I didn't make this up. I've read it and heard it from people who help these children. Please don't shoot the messenger.

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I think its terrible when a FFb family has the view that just cuz I'm frum my kids will automatically stay frum without putting any effort into teaching their kids about the importance and reason why we are frum. I think the main reason kids from FFb families fry out is b/c they dont know why they should be frum, other than its what they've been doing all along so why change.

agree