Teachers hitting students

Pickle Lady

Fri, Feb 16 2007, 1:23 pm

I have heard a few times that in some of the schools in Satmar and other chassidic sthat the teachers hit the kids as a form of punishment. I grew up secular and was raised that was against the law. This is against the law in the US. How do you as a mom feel about a teacher using violence to discipline children? My husband grew up in South Africa where a cane was used as punishment in school. He grew up with this and it totally amazed me that he was little able to accept this. I was raised that this is child abuse plain and simple. I was surprised to hear that this is pretty accepted in the frum world.

amother

Fri, Feb 16 2007, 1:35 pm

Um, dont you think this belongs in 'contraversial' ? Wink

I'm not going to say my opinion, cause I dont want to get Messed!
I have a feeling most of the people here are gonna scream 'abuse, how cruel...'
How about parents hitting children?

Imaonwheels

Sun, Feb 18 2007, 8:46 am

This thread won't be controversial if only the yes men check in.

What you are dealing with is a cultural issue to a large extent. Most of the world does not believe that giving a potch or even one sharp hit with a rod or similar thing is violence or child abuse.

I haven't given my own opinion yet, just bringing out the state of things. On planet Earth the number of people who feel as you do are by far the minority so the a little ethnocentricity is fed alongside - if you believe otherwise you are primitive, savage, abuser and a whole host of flattering adjectives.

The Torah as usual takes the middle ground. A teacher and parent are allowed to use physical punishment within well defined guidelines.
These include
1)Assur to hit out of anger or frustration
2)The parent/teacher must be responsible for the child's education
3)The adult must have made a calm, conscious decision that this measure is necessary at this time for the child's education
4)He must love the child
5)No hitting in the face
6) No embarassment, it must be done as much as possible privately
7)The child must be under BM age

The opinion of the Torah is my opinion. If I find that I was mistaken I will change my opinion accordingly.

Motek

Sun, Feb 18 2007, 3:21 pm

check out the Rashi in parshas Mishpatim 21:14 which says that a father who hits his son or a teacher who strikes his student and the child dies, are not culpable as one who killed deliberately since they did not mean to kill the child

also see S.Aruch about not hitting during the 3 Weeks (or 9 Days)

the Torah assumption is that children are hit, though many rabbonim and mechanchim will tell you that this cannot be done today

why? probably the main reason is that the adults do not do it for pure intentions but out of frustration

rainbow baby

Sun, Feb 18 2007, 3:32 pm

It is totally wrong for teachers to smack children. When I was in school they used the cane which was when I was around 7 so that is 23 years ago. I remember the girls coming back into class in agony with red lines across their legs and not being able to sit down. It is also dangerous especially if used on the hands as it can break bones. Also it can scare a child. I know some Rebbes use rulers and this can also cause harm to children. In the UK smacking is band. Any teacher or Rebbe that resorts to violence is definately in the wrong job, no teacher should ever be violent to children. They say a teacher who shouts alot has lost the respect of their pupils.

I remember once someone coming collecting to my house. They were collecting to help train Rebbes in discipling. To show them that you do not have to hit to discipline children. They said that some Rebbe's do not actually know that hitting is wrong which I find totally unbelievable.

If I found that one of my kids was being hit I would not hesitate to calling the police it is wrong and it should not happen.

amother

Sun, Feb 18 2007, 3:54 pm

Imaonwheels Thumbs Up

100% (although you better watch out cause someone might call the cops on you Wink

)

There is a gemara which says that a rebbe/melamed is allowed to/should hit a student to be mechanech, with all the conditions that imaonwheels mentioned.

My DH is a rebbe, an NO he does NOT hit/smack the kids. Hes says todays generation is different. Years ago kids had respect/fear for the rebbe so it worked.

If my son was really chutzpadik and got a small smack from the rebbe, I would NOT be upset.

And as a btw for those that are so quick to call the cops, just think for a second of the consequences. Your kids will be thrown out of the school and I dont think another school would take you in so fast.

rainbow baby

Sun, Feb 18 2007, 4:13 pm

Well excuse me amother if the head of that school was that irresponsible to allow Rebbe's to hit children and cause physical harm they should not be the head of a school. And to tell you the truth the school that my sons are at would not allow a Rebbe to hit the children. If they did the Rebbe would find themselves out of a job. Also I now of boys that were hit that have gone of religion because of what the Rebbe did to them. There are so many women on here that have emotional problems because people have hurt them. How do we know what emotion problems can be caused in later on life if a Rebbe hits a child. There is no excuse for a Rebbe to hit a child it causes resentment for that Rebbe and the children soon learn to not respect the Rebbe. Rebbe's that are respected are the ones that children have good relationships with, the ones that children feel they can turn to if they have a problem, the ones that do not rant and rave and the ones that do not hit. Rebbe's that hit cause children to be scared of them, that's no way to run a class. Maybe they would be better suited to being a prison office and not a Rebbe. Rebbe's that hit a bullies and a Rebbe should not be a bully. To me a Rebbe is a teacher, a friend and person that cares about his pupils. Someone that children respect and love in a way.

rainbow baby

Sun, Feb 18 2007, 4:22 pm

Quoted from imaonwheels, No embarassment, it must be done as much as possible privately

Well as far as I am concerned embarrassment will be caused as everyone will know what has happened. Also any Rebbe that takes a child into a private room is putting himself at risk of being accussed of child abuse. The Rebbe might take it too far especially if the child starts answering the Rebbe back. Again any Rebbe that has to resort to hitting has lost the control there is no excuse for it. My dh is a teacher he has never hit he will never hit and he would be immediately suspended and after an inquire would be sacked and most probably face police action. This is the way it should be.

amother

Sun, Feb 18 2007, 4:39 pm

So you're saying the gemara and rashi dont know what they're talking about. OK.

Again, DH says today it should not be done because kids today are different and many times it will not have the desired outcome. Meaning kids get turned off and go 'off the derech' much faster today. Years ago this was not so much the case and I dont think kids are turning out better today.
Its all about todays psychology- kids have rights...treat them with 'silk gloves'...

Ruchel

Mon, Feb 19 2007, 5:41 pm

In my culture, hitting (not beating) is not shocking, as I mentioned in another thread. School hitting stopped happening (supposed to, at least!) in public schools only a few years ago (I remember some hitting when I was in 1st grade, not to mention public humiliation with standing in front of the classroom wearing a pointed hat with written "arse" on it, and I'm not that old! LOL

).

I suppose Jewish schools still have it since it is what I've heard from friends who went there - it's a stereotype but traditional (Jewish or non jewish) parents & schools are supposed to be pro hitting. Every time I'm around Jews with kids, from
secular to frum, I see at least a bit of hitting and/or name calling and yelling... but Jews are not as violent as black people or Muslims (I have seen pretty horrifying things involving them). I don't want to imagine Muslim school, argh!

It is the reason why my parents only tried to send me to a Mo school (frummer = hits more, for smaller reasons & in harsher way) and didn't try extremely hard when they saw the 2 closest schools were full. Both had memories of quite non nice punishments, and stories of awful stuff from their parents.

I hope my children will never deserve to be hit, what can I say. But it is something I know that it can happen if I send them to Jewish school, and I want to.