Top Ten Things Not to Say to a Kofer

dimyona

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 3:16 pm

Ruchel wrote:

There are born-frei people who are into drugs and partying, but it seems that proportionally they are fewer, or it is more hidden, or not seen as as normal... it may just be an impression, but most of my frei and non Jewish friends do not have on their fb some types of pics I see on some "high profile" OTD ones. Partying in tights, pic on all fours tongue out... stuff like that.

I'm not the only one to have noticed. And to have wondered why they couldn't be lite MO, or traditional, or normal-frei instead.

Again I'm not saying it's all of them. My OTD uncle married in his early 20s to a woman he stayed 100% faithful to and devoted his existence to and they led the most "domestic" life ever, while eating pork and stuff.

I think you're confusing rebellious teenagers with kofrim. In order to qualify as an official kofer, one would need to do a lot serious introspection and research, and come to the logical conclusion that would lead him/her to reject Judaism as a belief system. One could be living "lite MO" lifestyle or for that matter an insular Satmar lifestyle and still be a kofer.

Many such people eventually choose to reject the lifestyle as well in order to live a more consistent and fulfilling life on their own terms.

And to the contrary, a formerly frum Miley Cyrus-like twerking champion is not necessarily a kofer.

marina

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 3:21 pm

shlomitsmum wrote:

I asked because is good to know so as not to alienate or annoy people further from Judaism.
Asking why or expressing pity is obviously impolite ,fake concern is always repulsive in any area not just OTD.

So ....

I just sort of carry on as if nothing has happened and treat the girl I know the same as before . I don't judge her but I feel guilty for not saying anything or even addressing the issue..... That is why I wanted to know IF there was something one can say that can be helpful or constructive.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, "hey, I understand you're going through some life changes, and I want you to know our friendship is not dependent on your religious observance. I'm always here if you want to talk."

EmesOrNT

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 3:27 pm

Barbara wrote:

EmesOrNT wrote:

To be clear, that amother list was not what I had in mind at all.

To be clear, I didn't think it was what you had in mind.

I would guess yours would start with something like, You only think that you've chosen this way of life, because you are so repressed that you cannot understand real freedom. Or something like that.

No, it would not.

There are many things in Judaism that I find strange, and even things I may not agree with. However, were I to ever leave, I should hope that I won't become that person who then pokes fun at those who are still frum.

Look, I don't care if you go OTD or not. I don't care to say any of the things in Marinas list, because Going off was your personal choice, and I don't care very much to change your mind.

However, there is absolutely NO reason to laugh at your counterparts. There is no reason to laugh at those who are trying to find the perfect esrog (no, I never understood that) by posting a picture of someone inspecting a banana. There is no reason to spend Yom Kippur posting on Facebook about all the stupid things the religious people are doing.

That is all.

P.S. I know that this thread is already up for discussion on Facebook.

shlomitsmum

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 3:31 pm

marina wrote:

shlomitsmum wrote:

Thanx 4 the reply Smile

. it is a relief to know that saying this would not be offensive ! I did not want her to read a similar comment as guilt , so I never even addressed the issue out of respect .

marina

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 3:43 pm

EmesOrNT wrote:

Barbara wrote:

EmesOrNT wrote:

To be clear, that amother list was not what I had in mind at all.

Do you ever laugh at other people's religious beliefs? No? Really?

For example, I recently saw a Facebook poster that begged women not to die virgins, because 70 terrorists would be waiting for them in heaven. Maybe I'm a bad person, but I think that's funny. I also think the cartoon of the chicken swinging the chossid around its head is funny. It is pretty funny to imagine that our inspecting an esrog looks to many people like if we saw someone inspecting a banana.

I don't know. Who gets to decide what's funny about religion? Or is nothing ever funny about religion? What are the rules?

HindaRochel

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 4:20 pm

amother wrote:

TOP TEN THINGS OTD PEOPLE SAY :
1. I feel free ( if youre so free , why the need to repeat thyself much)
2. There's proof ! ( yada yada for everything you prove , we have some proof back at ya )
3. I have a new life ( yet you all hang out with people mostly from your old life?)
4. We just wanted to be happy ( and, are you?)
5. All this kiruv ! YUK ! ( and yet , you create support groups..kiruv much?)
6. We just want respect ( but first you must give respect)
7. We are still moral. Moral has nothing to do with religion( yet large percentages of OTD ( do the research) are involved in promiscuous behavior\ drug\alcohol\etc.- many of these behaviors being immoral)
8. We love our children ( yet weren't willing to sacrifice your own happiness for their sake, which is what good parents do despite having to "live a lie" etc.)
9. We have nothing against anyone ( so why the hateful posts? hmm?
10. I believe in equel rights ( so let us have our rights to believe will ya ?)

I think you should reread the original post and Barbara's reply, because honestly, I don't think you read the first.

dimyona

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 4:24 pm

Quote:

There are no rules. I think it's really similar to racist jokes. They can be funny, but they can also be annoying or hurful. Regarding offensiveness, to quote Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it." There's a difference between a clever joke about religion and "You $#@%*&& goons believe in a flying spaghetti monster! Teehee!". I think those kind of "jokes" are just annoying to everyone.

PinkFridge

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 4:28 pm

bamamama wrote:

There definitely seems to be a section of people who are OTD who have become the people their communities warned them about.

But there are also people who've thought long and hard about their decision and who really do feel more free, feel greater joy in life, feel the world has regained some of its color, etc. Those people were moral before they became frum and will still be moral now. What they've shaken off are some of the more superficial-seeming musts and can'ts of religion.

First of all, I hope no one feels patronized or prayed for if they get a hug Tongue Out

(

?)

Second of all, I think there are many good people out there. I've noticed something interesting and that is, in my little suburb which has a lot of a certain racial group, there seems to be a lot of good parenting. A lot of messed up stuff too, I'm sure, but I see a lot of well-behaved kids at the library, intact families happily and calmly shopping - I think there are good people out there. I hope so, I truly do.

But at least for us there is value, profound value, in what seems like the minutiae. And I'm sure you've heard this already, from people more well-spoken and knowledgeable than I.

Babies and bathwater and all that, for that matter.

fromthedepths

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 4:36 pm

I think a lot depends on the relationship. I once had a very honest and open conversation with someone who seemed on his way to becoming a BT and then left. I asked him straight out why. I don't think he was offended. He is a close friend of dh, he used to spend lots of time in our house, and he knew that I was asking only because I cared. We're still friends, and he's sincerely happy to see me, so I don't think I pushed him away.

As far as #3, again, depends on the relationship. If somebody close to me went OTD, I would definitely ask, gently and sincerely, if anything happened and if there is anything I could help with. I would definitely be concerned, and at least try to see if the person feels hurt or is in pain. Because IME, in most cases there is some kind of trauma and hurt. And I would want to be there for them, no matter how they decide to live their lives.

Barbara

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 4:39 pm

EmesOrNT wrote:

Barbara wrote:

EmesOrNT wrote:

To be clear, that amother list was not what I had in mind at all.

With deep apologies for being unclear, I meant that you would include a comment like that on a list of offensive comments that OTD people make. Not that you would ever say anything like that. Mea culpa. I don't want this one to bite me in 12 months, so please forgive me now.

bamamama

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 4:47 pm

fromthedepths wrote:

I don't think it's necessary at all to pretend like the matter doesn't exist. I think most people welcome honest discussions about their beliefs. Discussing is completely different from the pithy pronouncements Marina listed above.

Shana_H

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 5:49 pm

marina wrote:

shlomitsmum wrote:

In an ideal world these would be lovely words to live by but this isn't an ideal world and I shudder to think what the neighbours would think and say if they got wind of your association with this OTD person :-)

ora_43

Tue, Sep 17 2013, 6:13 pm

It's a good list, marina.

I can't think of 10 things I wish OTD people (and some non-frum people who were never frum) wouldn't say, but I can think of 5, so I'll start there. (as in the original post, "you" is not meant to refer to anyone here.)

1. "Hur dur, it's like you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster," and the closely related,

2. "Hur dur, you think G-d cares what color underwear you wear," etc.

Anything can be made to sound stupid if you try hard enough to deliberately ignore the meaning behind it. These kinds of statements are annoying, crass, and do nothing to promote intelligent debate.

(As for when it's OK to joke about religion, it's OK in two circumstances:
1. You are a member of that religious group, making fun of "us" not "them" (that specific group - just being Jewish isn't enough to make it OK to mock chassidut, for example, you'd have to be chassidic).
2. You're making fun of a scenario where people from a religious group are going out and interfering with other people's lives, whether it's terrorists trying to kill people, thugs who attack people over religious disagreements, or, l'havdil, Mormons baptizing dead Jews or Chabadniks offering tefillin on public sidewalks. )

3. "Hey look, a frum person did something bad/stupid."

Of the millions of people who wear a kippah, many have done bad things. It turns out that just putting a piece of cloth on your head and claiming to believe doesn't automatically make you a good person. This comes as a surprise to just about nobody over the age of 18, and yet, there's always that one OTD friend who has to make sure everyone knows about every. single. case. involving a frummie acting badly. Because to him/her, this is PROOF. Of something. (Or more, disproves something - something that nobody believed in the first place.)

Don't be that friend.

4. "What do you believe ... ?"

OK, this is a tricky one to explain. I generally don't mind sharing my personal beliefs with people, whether they are frum, no longer frum, never frum, not Jewish, etc.

But what I do mind is being asked personal questions, only to discover the listener just wanted my answer as fuel for the never-ending Debate To Prove I'm Right. I don't mind sharing personal experiences. I don't mind debating ideas and beliefs. I do mind debating my personal feelings and beliefs, especially when you phrase your questions as gee-golly-just-curious questions, and especially when you aren't exactly forthcoming about your own inner life.

(When people do this, it can lead to the "you don't really want answers" accusation. Although I try not to say that, and don't think I ever have.)

5. "I can't help being OTD. I've just always been a really intellectual type. I just have to question everything."

No really, I wish I could still be like you, all content in my ignorance and stupidity. It's just a shame I was cursed with such a high IQ, and such a thirst for the real truth - which, of course, would lead anyone intelligent to my real truth. You're so lucky you can't understand how hard it is for people like me.

Blech. (Although hey, at least with these people you know where you stand - namely, in the position of "my frummie friend who I keep around because I like people I can feel superior to with no real effort.")