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At what age do you have your kids stop touching and how?
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amother




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Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 7:09 pm
Wow what a difference 6 years makes. Im editing this because so many people know my SN. We have changed so much as far as haskafa in this area I did not even recognize that I wrote this!

We didnt let our kids touch. Because thats what we were told was right. Now we do whats right for us. No closed doors with cousins and friends of the opposite gender, no rough play, and no tickling.

This has come up a few times for us lately. Our oldest daughter turned 3 and we have many family friends with older boys who we informed that we would like them to please stop playing with and touching dd. most took it okay but some were pretty upset about it (frum yeshivish people!) they said NO ONE does 3 and everyone does 6 or 12 :/.

We personally do 3 for a girl 9 for a boy.<edit> we do this because this is what our rav said we need to do not personal feelings of ours. So this weekend we had a 9 year old boy around and I asked him to please not pick up hug etc my dd. it felt a little awaked to ask. How do most do this? Do you just leave it and let the older person follow their own minhagim?

We have also had cases where 4 year old girls have climed in dh's lap while he was reading our kids a story and dh did not know how to handle it.

It seems we are in the minority who start shomer negiah at three :/ I am just not sure how this works with dealing with it in a day to day situation. (And if we really are in the minority for RW families)


Last edited by amother on Wed, Jan 30 2019, 5:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 7:11 pm
I've never heard of sn at age 3. Everyone I know does age 9 for both boys and girls.

If a girl climbs in a man's lap, you just gently move her off and put her on the side. After a few times, she'll figure it out. The man should be on a sofa, to ensure that the kids don't need to be on his lap in order to be near him.
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harriet




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 7:17 pm
RW FFB from large RW FFB family, never heard of starting SN from age 3 either.
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Cookies n Cream




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 7:28 pm
IIRC, ages 3 and 9 are the ages for Yichud.
We don't either hold that 3 for a girl is a problem with SN.
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OOTforlife




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 7:31 pm
Have you asked your rav what he requires in such situations b'dieved? It might not be the same as what he holds lechatchila.
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EmesOrNT




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 7:34 pm
I've never heard of shomer negia that young. I still touch my 10 year old nephew. My 7 year old niece plays with my boys. They are from a super chasidish, vishnitz family.
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gold21




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 7:36 pm
Where did you hear that Shomer Negeiah begins at age 3? Please consult your Rav and clarify. No way would I ask a 9 year old boy to stop touching my 3 year old girl (if I had a 3 year old girl, that is- she's still a baby :-)). I feel that "Derech Eretz Kadmah L'Torah" applies here. Don't be overly strict when not necessary and insult others in the process.
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Cookies n Cream




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 7:38 pm
EmesOrNT wrote:
I've never heard of shomer negia that young. I still touch my 10 year old nephew. My 7 year old niece plays with my boys. They are from a super chasidish, vishnitz family.


Most people that I know of hold that a boy begins at 9.
Girls people hold of different ages, depending on whether the girl is petite etc...

It sounds wierd now that I'm reading what I wrote, but I'm pretty sure that's what I learned.
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greenfire




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 7:44 pm
& here's where I think you put unnecessary thoughts into a young child's innocent mind ...

'why can't we touch them?'

'oh you might accidentally have zex?'

really - how about it if people would act normal so there wouldn't be this taboo about the opposite genders wreaking havoc on our youngen !!!
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gold21




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 7:46 pm
We hold Boy at 9, Girl at 12, tho like Cookies n Cream said, I think if a girl matures early for her age, she may stop a bit earlier than 12.
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amother






Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 8:05 pm
if that's what you want to do that is your prerogative and others should respect that. adults you can say something to and kids will probably not remember so you may have to remind them nicely. expect people to think your strange but they will get over it.

I am a little surprised that your husband got flustered by a 3 year old climbing into his lap. he does realize that 3 year olds are complete and total babies and understand nothing right? if he was bothered he just had to gently sit her on the couch and make sure she could see the pictures while he read the book- really nothing to get concerned about.
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Barbara




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 8:15 pm
SplitPea wrote:
This has come up a few times for us lately. Our oldest daughter turned 3 and we have many family friends with older boys who we informed that we would like them to please stop playing with and touching dd. most took it okay but some were pretty upset about it (frum yeshivish people!) they said NO ONE does 3 and everyone does 6 or 12 :/.

We personally do 3 for a girl 9 for a boy.<edit> we do this because this is what our rav said we need to do not personal feelings of ours. So this weekend we had a 9 year old boy around and I asked him to please not pick up hug etc my dd. it felt a little awaked to ask. How do most do this? Do you just leave it and let the older person follow their own minhagim?

We have also had cases where 4 year old girls have climed in dh's lap while he was reading our kids a story and dh did not know how to handle it.

It seems we are in the minority who start shomer negiah at three :/ I am just not sure how this works with dealing with it in a day to day situation. (And if we really are in the minority for RW families)


Out of curiosity, would this mean that you would not allow your daughter to play tag with a 4 year-old boy?

I'm also not getting how the differentiation of ages wold work. A 3 year old girl must observe shomer negiah. So even though an 8 year old boy wouldn't be obligated to observe shomer negiah, he couldn't hug the 3 year-old, since SHE is obligated in shomer negiah.
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Cookies n Cream




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 8:40 pm
Barbara wrote:
SplitPea wrote:
This has come up a few times for us lately. Our oldest daughter turned 3 and we have many family friends with older boys who we informed that we would like them to please stop playing with and touching dd. most took it okay but some were pretty upset about it (frum yeshivish people!) they said NO ONE does 3 and everyone does 6 or 12 :/.

We personally do 3 for a girl 9 for a boy.<edit> we do this because this is what our rav said we need to do not personal feelings of ours. So this weekend we had a 9 year old boy around and I asked him to please not pick up hug etc my dd. it felt a little awaked to ask. How do most do this? Do you just leave it and let the older person follow their own minhagim?

We have also had cases where 4 year old girls have climed in dh's lap while he was reading our kids a story and dh did not know how to handle it.

It seems we are in the minority who start shomer negiah at three :/ I am just not sure how this works with dealing with it in a day to day situation. (And if we really are in the minority for RW families)


Out of curiosity, would this mean that you would not allow your daughter to play tag with a 4 year-old boy?

I'm also not getting how the differentiation of ages wold work. A 3 year old girl must observe shomer negiah. So even though an 8 year old boy wouldn't be obligated to observe shomer negiah, he couldn't hug the 3 year-old, since SHE is obligated in shomer negiah.


No. Her 3 year old cannot touch males over the age of nine.
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the world's best mom




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 10:04 pm
My understanding was that Yichud starts at 3 for a girl and 9 for a boy, but only if one of them is Bar or Bas Mitvah. In other words, 2 10 year olds of opposite genders can have Yichud together (though I wouldn't recommend it), but a 13 year old boy can't be with a 3 year old girl. We start with Negiah at 9 for both.
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busydev




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 11:14 pm
some of my ultra yeshivish neighbors hold that a 3yo girl must dress 100% tznius. they also hold that a man over bar mitzva may not touch a 3yo and that a 3yo may not touch a boy over 9. acc to their rav chinuch is age 3
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Shana_H




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Dec 08 2013, 11:49 pm
SplitPea wrote:
This has come up a few times for us lately. Our oldest daughter turned 3 and we have many family friends with older boys who we informed that we would like them to please stop playing with and touching dd. most took it okay but some were pretty upset about it (frum yeshivish people!) they said NO ONE does 3 and everyone does 6 or 12 :/.

We personally do 3 for a girl 9 for a boy.<edit> we do this because this is what our rav said we need to do not personal feelings of ours. So this weekend we had a 9 year old boy around and I asked him to please not pick up hug etc my dd. it felt a little awaked to ask. How do most do this? Do you just leave it and let the older person follow their own minhagim?

We have also had cases where 4 year old girls have climed in dh's lap while he was reading our kids a story and dh did not know how to handle it.

It seems we are in the minority who start shomer negiah at three :/ I am just not sure how this works with dealing with it in a day to day situation. (And if we really are in the minority for RW families)


A) You've discovered that your observance of the laws of SN are more strict than most,
B) Your Rov has approved of your age requirements,
I'm not sure why you care to hear our opinion, you're attempting to "protect" your young daughter from ever being placed in a compromizing position, I commend you for this!
C) re; a visiting young female child sitting on your Husband's lap during story time, he should definitely without hesitation gently move the child from his lap to another more appropriate spot.
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cs1




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 12:45 am
Why is everyone bashing the op?! Just because they are strict in an area doesn't mean she needs to be put down. She is following the advice of her rav.
Ftr, I do remember hearing the ages for 3/9 somehwere but I do know that my family is pretty "lax" and I hug all my nephews under 7 (the rest stay far away from my hugs..lol) but they'll still touch me either by sitting near me or something like that..it just happens. I know my brothers definitely hug my neice that's 4.
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gold21




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:21 am
Cs1... Nobody bashed the OP. Having a different opinion than the OP does not equal bashing the OP.

I do though think that people are sensitive to this issue because somehow it seems that it sexualizes a 3 year old. I can understand the laws of Yichud applying to a 3 year old when alone with a boy over bar mitzvah- I can't understand the laws of Negeiah applying to a 3 year sitting on her 10 year old uncle's lap.
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Isramom8




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 2:15 am
OP, the halacha I was taught is:

No yichud/negiah allowed for a girl of 3 and a boy of 13.
No yichud/negiah allowed for a boy of 9 and a girl of 12.

A girl of 3 and a boy of 9 can be meyached and can touch.

There are different opinions, and this has to be done with tact. One man in my family held that a girl has to be 9, not 3, for this sort of issur. The infrequent times he visited, I didn't stop him from casually touching my daughter who was over 3 but under 9.

If an adult is reading to kids and doesn't like the setup, he can just say, "Okay kids, let's all find places on the couch! Easier for me to read that way."

In other words, it's chinuch, not a crisis.
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Culturedpearls




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 2:38 am
What Isramom8 said.
We hold tznius at 3. No mixed swimming etc. Boys 9.
Never had an issue besides my BIL hugging my 4yo DD. No we didn't make a fuss or say a word. There are different opinions & the chilul Hashem would override this.
My 9yo DD however did not allow herself to be hugged but she demurred & he was fine with that.
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