At what age do you have your kids stop touching and how?

Dolly1

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 2:43 am

I grew up without having a set timeline when to stop touching. It comes naturally. When a girl matures, she starts imitating those around her. If she sees that it´s inappropriate for women to touch men, she will pick it up at her own pace. Whenever she is ready to grow up. That´s the reason why I never even suspected anything at a young age, cuz everybody just acted natural. I do remember some of my classmates being more makpid, which resulted in them trying to dig under the surface and find out stuff that they were not ready for....
But I guess everybody does what they are supposed to do...

FranticFrummie

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 3:12 am

Dolly1 wrote:

I like this approach!

DD is 10yo, and a "hugger". In her school she has time set aside for social skills tutoring, and one of the things they picked up on right away is that she needs help with boundaries. (this is in a public school!) The teach her that if she wants to hug anyone, either a man or a woman, she has to ask first "Can I have a hug?" and then she has to wait for permission.

It's mainly the adult female teachers she wants to hug, but her male math teacher is her idol right now. He's teaching her other ways to connect, with a "high five" or some other less problematic touch. He's weaning her off of needing to show affection with physical touch, and helping her to use her words, like "I'm so happy to see you!" and "Thanks so much for helping me with math today."

I really love that even totally secular schools are starting to pick up on how important sn is to teach at an early age, without making the children feel like they're being pushed away. Of course, yichud is strictly enforced at all times, at home and at school. Her school is super strict about yichud, because of liability issues. They are also very strict about children of opposite gender not touching, and they discuss bullying and harassment in that context.

I do let her hug distant relatives, because she sees them so rarely. It just seems cruel not to let her. She'll grow out of it on her own.

Isramom8

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 3:20 am

Where there are positive role models, this does come naturally. We're "out of town". We didn't make a big deal about boy-girl friendships between neighbors. But by like second grade, the kids themselves tone things down. On Shabbos I noticed my son in 6th grade exchange a few words with his former neighbor-friend-girl in 5th grade. It was so cute! Because naturally, they rarely speak anymore. No one had to tell them any rules.

FranticFrummie

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 3:24 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Yep, it was just about 2nd grade when DD decided that boys were no fun to play with anymore. She wanted to play fairies and unicorns, and the boys wanted to have a war and blow everything up! I had to assure her that the boys were normal, and that it was just a part of growing up. They get more interested in "boy stuff", and girls want to do "girl stuff". There was one boy she continued to play with until third grade, but he said he wanted to be a hairdresser when he grew up, or maybe a florist - he couldn't decide. shock

(I hope his parents are ready to handle this!)

Isramom8

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 3:30 am

We encounter all kinds of situations, but I really see that with strong role modeling, kids can handle themselves. A boy wanted to dance with my 10 year old daughter at a neighbor's bat mitzvah? She simply turned away casually to avoid it. A teen boy on the bus offered my 12 year old daughter gum? She said no thank you and turned her head away to avoid further interest.

amother

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 6:54 am

Isramom8 wrote:

This is why we have halacha and gedarim.

Your daughter turned away but many girls would not in that that situation, but if the know it's against halacha then there's no problem.

Cookies n Cream

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 7:34 am

amother wrote:

EmesOrNT wrote:

I've never heard of shomer negia that young. I still touch my 10 year old nephew.

Well that's against halacha.

Halacha says the age of chinuch which is 9.

To the best of my knowledge, Halacha doesn't give a specific age for the age of Chinuch. People have different interpretations. Some say that age 3 is the age of Chinuch which is why a boy puts on a yarmulke then, Skver says that age two is the age and they therefore make an upsherin at two years old.
Many say it depends on the specific child. It's at the point where they understand certain things/have certain sensitivities.

amother

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 7:37 am

Cookies n Cream wrote:

amother wrote:

EmesOrNT wrote:

I've never heard of shomer negia that young. I still touch my 10 year old nephew.

Well that's against halacha.

Halacha says the age of chinuch which is 9.

I believe you're wrong. At least in the sense that I don't think anyone says later than 9. Not today's poskim.

And those that put on a yarmulke at 3 is not because of chinuch. They are lenient with their children for many chinuch-related halachos until 9.

SplitPea

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 7:41 am

Thanks for all the opinions. I did a bit of looking into things and realized that we might have misheard our rav that its probably 3/bar mitzvah and 9/bat mitzvah not 3+9. I will make a call today to make sure and if that's the case I guess we owe some apologies to our friends.

I guess it's interesting to know so many feel 3 for SN is very early. Our rav is not known for being crazy machmier so I figured we were doing what was pretty normal for the rest of society.

I mean honestly what does any grown man need to be touching my 3 year old for?

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 8:27 am

Against halacha or not, these are rules I see very frum, FFB, families not following strictly. So maybe 3/9 is only one opinion?

I WAS shocked when my then 9 or 10 year old cousin came to sit on my lap, while I had been avoiding touching him (chassidish). I do kiss my old uncles etc, well I do the air kiss and let them kiss me. I did ask a psak on this. I won't tell dd to stop touching family until much later. I will teach her the air kiss when she comes home from school discussing shomer negia etc. Cousins I will tell her to avoid but if they push her playing ball or whatever, not to freak out. I trust the school to handle this when they find is age appropriate. This summer we were in a similar type environment in the mountains and the "mora" told dd that she shouldn't dance in front of men and now she isn't so comfy with it. Which I find early, but won't push one way or another. She seems to be slowly forgetting it. When school reintroduces it, I will respect it.

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 8:30 am

Age of chinuch I always heard 3, which doesn't mean non-understandable halachos are taught then, or that halacha applies before bar and bas mitsva (and I think 9 for some).

Why would a man touch your 3 year old? because he loves kids? because he is lo alenu childless and dreaming of such a sitch in his hime? because he didn't think of what he's doing and just patted her head? because she's his baby cousin? many NON GROSS reasons.

I also touch people's kids babies and animals. Sometimes strangers. In my world it's not an issue, that worst I'm "weird".

SplitPea

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 8:58 am

SplitPea wrote:

Just spoke with my rav. He said its absolutely 100% 3 for a girl and 9 for a boy and and it means a 3 year old girl should not touch a 9 year old boy. He told me stories if things that have happened and said it was my job to protect my daughter. He also said he will find the source for me today and let me know exactly where it comes from.

He says we absolutely need to keep my daughter from rough housing, hugging, etc my friends 10 year old son. He says they should not play in the basement alone.

I guess we are really in the minority in the frum community.

So maybe my question is now how would be a good way if explaining to people that we hold like this and the kids can't play together any more?

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:03 am

Unfortunately bad touch can happen with a boy under 9 too.
I would definitely talk about bad touch, and saying no when not wanting too, and keeping an eye on it.

It's interesting how ages differ in the community for tznius and negia. I make my dd wear tights from 3 but I'm not careful to cover the elbow or knee fully. I guess I really do trust her school, bh, to tell me when the skirt isn't good. I recently bought a dress and apparently when she sits it's reeeeaaaaally above the knee, more like mid limb, and the mora told dd nicely (she is not upset or traumatized, she said she will keep the dress for home).

SplitPea

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:26 am

Isramom8 wrote:

SplitPea, maybe you can just supervise the kids? Or make up some other reason that the kids won't be playing together. I might not appreciate it if you told me straight out what you claim your rav said as a reason, because it doesn't sound right to me. No shita says to spell out to young children not to touch in child's play.

Honestly I take offence at how you just put that "I claim my rav says" couldn't you have just said "your rav says" you make it act like I am making stuff up.

MaBelleVie

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:27 am

If you hold that's the age of chinuch, then you hold that your child has the understanding at that age. So I would just explain to her: big girls can play with big boys, but they don't touch each other, because that's only for your mommy and daddy and grandma and grandpa and brothers and sisters. So if youre playing with a big boy, make sire to tell him that he can't touch you if you see that hes touching you while you play.

If she can't understand that, I don't see how she can be at the age of chinuch. You should not have to be lecturing other people's children.

I will add that I have never heard of this 3&9 thing. I was taught that the minimum age for yichud is 3&13 or 12&9 for girl and boy respectively.

Isramom8

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:37 am

Sorry, I can believe that your rav really said that, but I don't know why a rav would say that as halacha. I can hear his point about the world being crazy nowadays.

I'll be honest in saying that I think that either you are not understanding his advice and/or reasoning, or that he has gotten a bit confused on the actual halacha. It would make me uncomfortable if a neighbor talked to me about the children's playing with what you have written.

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:37 am

Bat and bat mitsva makes much more sense to me, but that's just my idea.

I think at chinuch age you may well not understand many halachos. Even much later. In fact even at bar mitsva you may be unable to understand some halachos and you still def have to keep them, not just for chinuch.

I know people who hold chinuch age is 3, or 5( heard that one recently), but the child waits full 6 hours only at 6 (they do one hour by year) and full tznius only at 5/6/9.

Again, I'm fascinated by the dozens of shittot.