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At what age do you have your kids stop touching and how?
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:41 am
SplitPea wrote:
Thanks for all the opinions. I did a bit of looking into things and realized that we might have misheard our rav that its probably 3/bar mitzvah and 9/bat mitzvah not 3+9. I will make a call today to make sure and if that's the case I guess we owe some apologies to our friends.

I guess it's interesting to know so many feel 3 for SN is very early. Our rav is not known for being crazy machmier so I figured we were doing what was pretty normal for the rest of society.

I mean honestly what does any grown man need to be touching my 3 year old for?


If this is what your Rav said, then I guess this is what you should follow.

However, the comment "honestly what does any grown man need to be touching my 3 year old for" gives me the heebie-jeebies. The no-touching-a-3-year-old thing is for Chinuch purposes at this point, not because a man who would give your daughter a pat on the head or let her sit right up next to him on the couch has any inappropriate intentions. To a normal man, a 3 year old girl is no different than a 2 year old girl and no different than a 4 year old boy. 3 year olds are not s-xual creatures anymore than normal men are pedophiles.

So yes, follow your Rav's guidance on this issue, but realize that its for Chinuch purposes only at this point.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:47 am
I agree with gold. My three year old nieces are so little! Why would anyone think something sinister is going on if my husband picked them up and swung then around when they came to visit? Or held them on his lap while they ate or read a book?

I think that we need to keep our eyes wide open without suspecting that everyone out there is a child molester. Pedophilia is a sickness, not something the average guy is likely to pursue.
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Cookies n Cream




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:53 am
amother wrote:
Cookies n Cream wrote:
amother wrote:
EmesOrNT wrote:
I've never heard of shomer negia that young. I still touch my 10 year old nephew.


Well that's against halacha.

Halacha says the age of chinuch which is 9.


To the best of my knowledge, Halacha doesn't give a specific age for the age of Chinuch. People have different interpretations. Some say that age 3 is the age of Chinuch which is why a boy puts on a yarmulke then, Skver says that age two is the age and they therefore make an upsherin at two years old.
Many say it depends on the specific child. It's at the point where they understand certain things/have certain sensitivities.


I believe you're wrong. At least in the sense that I don't think anyone says later than 9. Not today's poskim.

And those that put on a yarmulke at 3 is not because of chinuch. They are lenient with their children for many chinuch-related halachos until 9.


I'm not debating that nobody says that SN starts at later than 9.
I'm debating that SN starts at Chinuch age /and that Halacha gives a specific age for Chinuch age.

And what is the reason that people put on a yarmulke specifically at three (or two)? I asked and was told that it's due to Chinuch.
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Isramom8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:54 am
I can't understand which shita this rav is following. I teach taharas hamishpacha. Every detail in my course is backed by the psak of Israeli gedolim. (I learned no negiah with 13 boy and 3 girl, and no negiah with 12 girl and 9 boy.)

Is this some Chassidish shita that I never heard of?

Or just this rav's personal comfort zone?

Chumros can be okay, but which gadol or shita advises this as one?
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:55 am
I must say I've read 3/9 on a dati Francophone site.

I think also it depends on your age. A boy or girl crazy 10 year old is not the same as a totally clueless one.
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:57 am
I think the only solution may be not to involve your dd in social situations where boys are present. Not sure how a three year old could regulate their behavior in this regard. Often three year olds are still in diapers/pull ups, in other words not even self aware enough to be fully toilet trained. And putting the onus upon other people's young sons, who will not understand, is unfair. I am not judging your choice, but I personally would not be willing to expose a son to tznius lessons at an age younger than I felt they could naturally understand the concept and relate to it.
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Cookies n Cream




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 9:59 am
Ruchel wrote:
Bat and bat mitsva makes much more sense to me, but that's just my idea.

I think at chinuch age you may well not understand many halachos. Even much later. In fact even at bar mitsva you may be unable to understand some halachos and you still def have to keep them, not just for chinuch.

I know people who hold chinuch age is 3, or 5( heard that one recently), but the child waits full 6 hours only at 6 (they do one hour by year) and full tznius only at 5/6/9.

Again, I'm fascinated by the dozens of shittot.



My father always held that very young children (even 1.5) need to wait a certain amount of time from meat to dairy. Others (like myself) hold that it's once the child learns it. When my daughter learned it in Nursery and understood the concept I started making her wait. That doesn't mean that she's chinuch age for all the Halachos.
As soon as she understood the concept of Tznius (covering knees and elbows etc) at age 4 , she kept it even though we technically hold that it begins at age 5.

Obviously, like you said if they reach a certain age and they don't understand all the Halachos, they still need to keep them...
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 10:01 am
I find an article about not kissing one's niece after either 8/9, or 3.
http://www.cheela.org/pudeur/3.....niece
It mentions not kissing one's sister after 3, or bas mitsva. Which personally I really don't see myself enforcing and will gladly leave the dilemma up to the kids themselves!!
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 11:22 am
I think its OK that your rov want you to keep a chumrah.

I think the reasoning is very odd though.

protect your children- yes.

paranoia and suspecting everyone- no.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 11:22 am
sarahd wrote:
amother wrote:
EmesOrNT wrote:
I've never heard of shomer negia that young. I still touch my 10 year old nephew.


Well that's against halacha.

Halacha says the age of chinuch which is 9.


Why can't you say that under your own screenname?


Why indeed .... I think we all know why
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eschaya




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 11:27 am
Op, you wonder how it can ever be appropriate for a man to touch your three year old toddler. What about when she stumbles and a caring uncle picks her up and makes sure shes not hurt. Or when she is crying at the playground b/c she cant find her mommy and a kind friend`s tatty leads her by the hand to where you are sitting, engrossed in conversation. Or when she goes to shul and needs help finding your husband on the mens side. Etc... a 3 year old is a toddler, no sexualization should be applied! If your rav holds this way, no criticism is meant. But I just wanted to respond to your premise that there are no situaions of benign or appropriate touch btween a female toddler and unrelated (and especially relatef) adult males.
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out-of-towner




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 11:35 am
I believe that my father's Rav does not touch his nieces or any other girl who isn't his wife, his child, or grandchild. However, I don't think he has told my parents to do the same. I could be wrong, but I think it's his personal Chumra.
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Isramom8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 11:36 am
I am all for halacha. Even strictly interpreted halacha. But this is an area that is flexible. I know a case where a 9 year old girl whose family was becoming BT held out her hand to shake hands with an Agudah rav. The rav didn't shake her hand - instead, he hugged her.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 12:09 pm
SplitPea wrote:
Isramom8 wrote:
SplitPea, maybe you can just supervise the kids? Or make up some other reason that the kids won't be playing together. I might not appreciate it if you told me straight out what you claim your rav said as a reason, because it doesn't sound right to me. No shita says to spell out to young children not to touch in child's play.


Honestly I take offence at how you just put that "I claim my rav says" couldn't you have just said "your rav says" you make it act like I am making stuff up.


To be blunt, I think IM is trying to be dan lcaf zchus that you misunderstood rather than acknowledge that your Rov is giving us all the impression that he is encouraging weird bizarre behavior .
After Weberman and Lev Tahor , we are all hyper hyper sensitized
Why can't the frum world JUST BE NORMAL
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wispalover




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 12:17 pm
amother wrote:
EmesOrNT wrote:
I've never heard of shomer negia that young. I still touch my 10 year old nephew.


Well that's against halacha.

Halacha says the age of chinuch which is 9.


Thank you Rabbi Amother for your excellent clarity and explaining of Halacha. We would be lost without you.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 12:26 pm
No offense meant by this post OP.

I don't understand, in all of our discussions on this, how these rules don't normalize pedophelia.

In other words, we don't have a rule that says 4 year old boys can't sit on a non-relative's lap. We don't have that rule because being attracted to a 4 year old boy is not normal and halacha is made for normal people.

But a 3 year old girl has to be tznius and can't be alone with, or touch, any males? Doesn't that mean it's normal to be attracted to 3 year old girls?

If it was all about protection, the 4 year old boy would also be protected.
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MaBelleVie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 12:49 pm
marina wrote:
No offense meant by this post OP.

I don't understand, in all of our discussions on this, how these rules don't normalize pedophelia.

In other words, we don't have a rule that says 4 year old boys can't sit on a non-relative's lap. We don't have that rule because being attracted to a 4 year old boy is not normal and halacha is made for normal people.

But a 3 year old girl has to be tznius and can't be alone with, or touch, any males? Doesn't that mean it's normal to be attracted to 3 year old girls?

If it was all about protection, the 4 year old boy would also be protected.


My guess is that a three year old girl is a lot more likely to be victimized by a man than a four year old boy by a woman. No? If not today, then at the time these laws were established.

(Do normal people rape and murder?)
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Beyla




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 12:57 pm
In my family we also hold that shomer negia (and tznius) concerns a 3 yrs olded girl, but we don't say anything if she normally plays with a little boy or touches her uncle to say hi! We just don't want her to get used to be kissed/hugged by men or big boys. So she knows it's not normal.
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wispalover




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:14 pm
MaBelleVie wrote:
marina wrote:
No offense meant by this post OP.

I don't understand, in all of our discussions on this, how these rules don't normalize pedophelia.

In other words, we don't have a rule that says 4 year old boys can't sit on a non-relative's lap. We don't have that rule because being attracted to a 4 year old boy is not normal and halacha is made for normal people.

But a 3 year old girl has to be tznius and can't be alone with, or touch, any males? Doesn't that mean it's normal to be attracted to 3 year old girls?

If it was all about protection, the 4 year old boy would also be protected.


My guess is that a three year old girl is a lot more likely to be victimized by a man than a four year old boy by a woman. No? If not today, then at the time these laws were established.

(Do normal people rape and murder?)


Perhaps just as likely to be victimized by a man though. It doesn't make sense. Four year old boys might be just as enticing to a sick pedophile as a four year old girl, no?
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amother


 

Post Mon, Dec 09 2013, 1:14 pm
What if my 9 yo dd sits on her 16 yo brother lap or touches him? Is it -allowed ?. I told her not to sit on his lap but I let them touch each other.
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