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At what age do you have your kids stop touching and how?
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jeweled




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 10:51 pm
I don't understand the age differences. If it's 3 and 9; who exactly is the 9 year old boy touching? No females over 3? So why isn't it both 3? And if I'm crossing the street with my five year old son and his friend I can't hold his hand? I'm missing something here... anyone?
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MaBelleVie




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Dec 09 2013, 11:47 pm
SplitPea wrote:
MaBelleVie wrote:
The SA says boy 13 girl 3, boy 9 girl 12. Just to clarify.


Would you mind quoting that Smile what I have here says 9& 3 with no mention of 13 and 12. Smile


Here it is in English. http://www.sichosinenglish.org.....hud/05.htm "man" and "woman" in halacha generally refer to those above bar/bat mitzvah. You can see that the younger ones are referred to as boy and girl.

It is clearly mentioned here:

Children Below Bar/Bas Mitzvah Age

8. It is permitted for a girl below the age of Bas Mitzvah to be in seclusion with a boy below the age of Bar Mitzvah.[38]
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chavs




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 9:41 am
jeweled wrote:
I don't understand the age differences. If it's 3 and 9; who exactly is the 9 year old boy touching? No females over 3? So why isn't it both 3? And if I'm crossing the street with my five year old son and his friend I can't hold his hand? I'm missing something here... anyone?


I think that whether you go by 3 and 9 or 12 and 13 or whatever it is some common sense is in order.
If my dh would take my dd and her friend home and they cross the street, of course he'd hold her hand. I remember seeing an older woman fall on the road and an unrelated frum guy going and helping her up and cross. Helping a little child cross safely (or an older one if they need help), has to come first.

Furthermore, I think its inappropriate to spell it out to the kids playing that they shouldnt touch. If they are getting to touchy feely, then re-direct them. Get them to come down and make cookies/challa, give them play doh, crayons or whatever works for you/them but why draw attention to it. This doesnt only go for sn but for any play thats getting to rough or inappropriate in other ways.
Generally I would say that discouraging your kids from closing their doors so no one can see or hear them should also be common sense.

I agree with what was said about it not being that weird for an adult male to touch a 3 year old, completely normally, if she for example falls and he helps her up or takes her to her mother if she cries.
I remember being in a soft play place and this little boy got stuck up on high and couldnt get down, he was crying and really scared. A few mothers were looking at him uncomfortably and I over and lifted him of (I think it was of a window sill). Again common sense. No one wants other to think they are molesters but when a child needs help, then as an adult (whether man or woman) common sense should dictate that we help, whether the child is 3 or 9 and I'm a man or a woman. We're not talking about going to cuddle someone elses child, but sometimes touching someone's kid is needed.

Giving a personal example where there is no doubt about halacha. I was niddoh and with my dh, and walked into the road and didnt see a car and he pulled me back. It wasnt romantic and it wasnt s-xy it was just common sense.
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Zehava




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 10:06 am
Am I Missing something? I come from a really frum family and little kids were never an issue of touching. Til bar bat mitzvah my parents had no issue. I'd never think twice about touching a little boy that needs my help. I think yichud is being confused with negiah.
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Isramom8




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 11:52 am
Splitpea, please post exactly where in the Shulchan Aruch you are referring to.

I'm glad that things worked out well between the neighbors.
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SplitPea




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 11:57 am
Isramom8 wrote:
Splitpea, please post exactly where in the Shulchan Aruch you are referring to.

I'm glad that things worked out well between the neighbors.


In not sure
What
Happened to the last post where I did. And where I said this all showed things are up for interpretation. I need to call and ask my rav again exactly where it is because now I don't have it written down

But my last post (that's now not here) was pretty much me bowing out if this thread. I don't like the attacks. The "I must be wrong" "my rav must
Misunderstand" etc my rav holds its a very big deal we will be following him and I will just leave it at that.

When I can call my rav back I will re get where he was speaking about. Like everything I am sure things can be interpreted but I don't appreciate the feelings of hostility tword me or my rav in this thread.
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Isramom8




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 12:01 pm
I'm not hostile, but I will stand up for halacha. Show me a source and I will ask my DH if he can make any sense of it. So far I know what the gedolim say.

Why this rav wants to write a sefer with psak stricter than the Israeli Chareidi gedolim I don't know. Please let us know the sefer's title and author.


Last edited by Isramom8 on Tue, Dec 10 2013, 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SplitPea




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 12:05 pm
again when I can call my rav again this evening I will ask him. but my point of this thread was NOT to change anyones mind or convince anyone of my point of view. it was to see what others did. I see I am in the minority. that does not change what I will do because we trust and follow my rav.



I am sorry I ever got into the conversation of sources because honestly I trust and follow my rav on this topic as you should trust and follow yours! If your rav has told you what to do then FOLLOW THAT don't matter what mine says or does. All I ask for is respect on how our rav holds is halaca.
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Isramom8




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 12:11 pm
I am happy to respect what your rav is saying if it is a sensible thing to say in halacha. I don't accept everything that any rabbi says as just as valid as everything any other rabbi says.
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SplitPea




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 12:20 pm
Isramom8 wrote:
I am happy to respect what your rav is saying if it is a sensible thing to say in halacha. I don't accept everything that any rabbi says as just as valid as everything any other rabbi says.


so respect me as a person.

ok really I am no longer reading this thread. its making me sick
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Barbara




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 12:25 pm
SplitPea wrote:
again when I can call my rav again this evening I will ask him. but my point of this thread was NOT to change anyones mind or convince anyone of my point of view. it was to see what others did. I see I am in the minority. that does not change what I will do because we trust and follow my rav.



I am sorry I ever got into the conversation of sources because honestly I trust and follow my rav on this topic as you should trust and follow yours! If your rav has told you what to do then FOLLOW THAT don't matter what mine says or does. All I ask for is respect on how our rav holds is halaca.


Duty bound to support you on this.

I hate when people attack my rabbis as being too liberal. That obligates me to support you on the flip side.

We don't have to accept her rabbi's interpretation. And IMNSHO its fine to ask for sources to try to understand it. But we shouldn't attack someone for following her rav.
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Isramom8




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 12:30 pm
I am just trying to understand where your rav is coming from.

Of course I respect you as a person. And as a mom, you have every right not to allow your 3 year old daughter to be touched by boys of 9 and older if that is what you are comfortable with. You don't need a reason other than your own will.
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 12:45 pm
amother wrote:
marina wrote:
There's an issur against murder, but there's no prohibition against being alone with a preschool girl, lest you come to murder her. There is a prohibition against being alone with her lest you come to have relations with her, though.


About protection- it's not about that. Because then the 4 year old boy would also be not allowed to be alone with his creepy uncle.

Also, the hilchos yichud are very clear that they are there to prevent untoward conduct and not to protect anyone.

The difference between protecting against murder and protecting against inappropriate s-xual desires is that s-x is a part of typical adult life. It is needed for marriage. In order to cause husbands to be attracted to their wives, Hashem created them with a strong s-xual desire. This can be misused if directed at anyone other than his wife. But normal people do not have a strong desire to murder people. Murdering is not normal or healthy for anyone ever.

Since people have this s-x drive, they also have Hilchos Yichud to help them use it appropriately.


Do normal people have a strong s-xual desire towards 4 year olds? What are you saying?

And of course people have a temptation to murder. How many times have you thought, even as a joke: aagggh I just want to kill him! And how many times have you thought, even as a joke: wow, I'd sure like to have s-ex with that preschooler?
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 12:47 pm
jeweled wrote:
I don't understand the age differences. If it's 3 and 9; who exactly is the 9 year old boy touching? No females over 3? So why isn't it both 3? And if I'm crossing the street with my five year old son and his friend I can't hold his hand? I'm missing something here... anyone?


In theory, the boy over 9 can be aroused and have zera levatala problems if the girl is over 3. That's the point of this rule.

It's not a problem for a 5 year old boy to touch anyone's hand. Only once he is over 9- all women over 3 become a problem.

It's not a problem for a 2 year old girl to touch anyone's hand. Only once she is over 3, all males over 9 become a problem.
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 12:50 pm
Barbara wrote:
SplitPea wrote:
again when I can call my rav again this evening I will ask him. but my point of this thread was NOT to change anyones mind or convince anyone of my point of view. it was to see what others did. I see I am in the minority. that does not change what I will do because we trust and follow my rav.



I am sorry I ever got into the conversation of sources because honestly I trust and follow my rav on this topic as you should trust and follow yours! If your rav has told you what to do then FOLLOW THAT don't matter what mine says or does. All I ask for is respect on how our rav holds is halaca.


Duty bound to support you on this.

I hate when people attack my rabbis as being too liberal. That obligates me to support you on the flip side.

We don't have to accept her rabbi's interpretation. And IMNSHO its fine to ask for sources to try to understand it. But we shouldn't attack someone for following her rav.


Not talking about Split Pea here, but I don't think I agree with your perspective. What if a rabbi, whether lenient or strict, says something crazy? Do we just respect whoever follows that rabbi? What if a rabbi, for example, explains that Zumba is [...] completely forbidden for pure Jewish neshamot? Do we still respect those who follow him blindly?

[edited. -merelyme, as mod]
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merelyme




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 5:07 pm
I've removed some offensive posts and edited others.
Please post only if you can be both helpful and appropriate.

(I am tired and crabby. And I don't want to lock or remove this thread.)

Thanks!
-merelyme, as mod
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amother






Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 5:17 pm
Cookies n Cream wrote:
amother wrote:
What if my 9 yo dd sits on her 16 yo brother lap or touches him? Is it -allowed ?. I told her not to sit on his lap but I let them touch each other.


Shomer Negiah is not applicable between siblings.

I know but I'm thinking if she is jumping and playing on his lap isn't she rubbing his privates?? Am I making sense???
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Barbara




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 5:47 pm
marina wrote:
Barbara wrote:
SplitPea wrote:
again when I can call my rav again this evening I will ask him. but my point of this thread was NOT to change anyones mind or convince anyone of my point of view. it was to see what others did. I see I am in the minority. that does not change what I will do because we trust and follow my rav.



I am sorry I ever got into the conversation of sources because honestly I trust and follow my rav on this topic as you should trust and follow yours! If your rav has told you what to do then FOLLOW THAT don't matter what mine says or does. All I ask for is respect on how our rav holds is halaca.


Duty bound to support you on this.

I hate when people attack my rabbis as being too liberal. That obligates me to support you on the flip side.

We don't have to accept her rabbi's interpretation. And IMNSHO its fine to ask for sources to try to understand it. But we shouldn't attack someone for following her rav.


Not talking about Split Pea here, but I don't think I agree with your perspective. What if a rabbi, whether lenient or strict, says something crazy? Do we just respect whoever follows that rabbi? What if a rabbi, for example, explains that Zumba is [...] completely forbidden for pure Jewish neshamot? Do we still respect those who follow him blindly?

[edited. -merelyme, as mod]


Zumba IS forbidden.

Okay. Couldn't resist.

I think its fine to ask the basis. Its fine to challenge the basis. Its fine to say "that opinion is well outside the mainstream of modern (small M) Orthodox thought because ...."

Its not fair to say, without further citation, "your rabbi must be a fruitcake" or "you're out of your mind, he never said that" or "he can't be an Orthodox rabbi if he said that." I'm exaggerating, of course. But my guess is that OP felt as if that was being said.
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greenfire




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 5:54 pm
amother wrote:
Cookies n Cream wrote:
amother wrote:
What if my 9 yo dd sits on her 16 yo brother lap or touches him? Is it -allowed ?. I told her not to sit on his lap but I let them touch each other.


Shomer Negiah is not applicable between siblings.

I know but I'm thinking if she is jumping and playing on his lap isn't she rubbing his privates?? Am I making sense???


are you serious ?!?!?!

a person sitting on another persons is not grinding them or giving them a lap dance ... people's minds aren't that dirty - unless of course they are demented perverts which is an entire different situation than the basic family element ...

if you pass the salt to a family member and you accidentally touch them - can you also be accused of feeling their boobs ? certainly I hope not Rolling Eyes
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Heyaaa




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Dec 10 2013, 6:55 pm
greenfire wrote:
amother wrote:
Cookies n Cream wrote:
amother wrote:
What if my 9 yo dd sits on her 16 yo brother lap or touches him? Is it -allowed ?. I told her not to sit on his lap but I let them touch each other.


Shomer Negiah is not applicable between siblings.

I know but I'm thinking if she is jumping and playing on his lap isn't she rubbing his privates?? Am I making sense???


are you serious ?!?!?!

a person sitting on another persons is not grinding them or giving them a lap dance ... people's minds aren't that dirty - unless of course they are demented perverts which is an entire different situation than the basic family element ...

if you pass the salt to a family member and you accidentally touch them - can you also be accused of feeling their boobs ? certainly I hope not Rolling Eyes


I agree with you but a better example is if a 4 year old boy is sitting on your lap and leans back. Until this minute, I never thought about it but I just realized that would mean he's touching my boobs.
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