Which would upset you more?...Lesbianism or Stealing?

BeershevaBubby

Sun, Apr 01 2007, 2:43 am

southernbubby wrote:

Who is to say that the blacks excuses are incorrect either? Before WWII frum communities supported themselves. There were many business owners. The only reason that these families left Europe was to rebuild here. Face it. The frum community cannot afford it's way of life. What should it give up? Chinuch, marriage, children? I am not even talking about excess gashmius. That is rapidly disappearing. There are probably more families that struggle than that live in luxury. Cheating may not be the answer but then, what is?

If they could support themselves once, why can't they support themselves now?

Simply put, because too much emphasis is put on learning in Kollel for the rest of your life and not on actually making a living. THAT'S why there were more business owners then than there are now. Now, having a career or a business is frowned upon in many communities. There's PRIDE in living on welfare and cheating - STEALING from the government of whatever country you may live in.

And either they stayed in Europe and perished, or they left Europe and went to live on the dole... you can't have it both ways in your arguement.

And when does "I'm OWED" end? 10 years after? 100 years after? 500 years after?

bashinda

Sun, Apr 01 2007, 7:55 am

I agree somewhat with what you're saying kmelion but find that your argument would be strengthened if you didn't single out kollel people. I doubt that they're the primary culprits here. (btw I hardly come from a community where kollel is a major lifestyle)

Motek

Thu, May 17 2007, 2:36 pm

Motek wrote:

Hannah! wrote:

On lesbianism being an issur d'rabbanan, see the 9th perek of Rambam's Issurei Biyah, and the sources cited therein.

I don't see it there (did not read through every word) and I highly doubt it's an isur d'rabbanan since if you go to askmoses.com for example, the response is, it's not proper for reasons of modesty but no isur is cited.

In the 21st perek of Isurei Bi'a, halacha 8 it says:

"Women engaging in s-xual play with one another is forbidden and is of the ways of the Egyptians which we have been warned against, as it says, 'as the deeds of the land of Egypt, do not do.' The Sages say, what did they [the Egyptians] do? A man would marry a man and a woman would marry a woman, and a woman would marry two men. Although this [women engaging in s-xual play with one another] is forbidden, they are not flogged for it for there is no specific prohibition and there is no intercourse at all. Therefore, they are not forbidden to kohanim because of zenus (harlotry). And a woman would not be forbidden to her husband because of this, for this does not entail zenus. They should be given makas mardus (rabbinic lashes) since they did something forbidden. A man should not permit his wife to engage in this and should prevent women who are known to do so from interacting with her."