Why do you care about how other parents dress?

PinkFridge

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 10:59 am

I think I'm going to neglect Shabbos prep and go through this thread to see who first mentioned Uggs. I was all set to buy them for my daughter, actually go 50/50, had we found them during the cyber sales for less than x. Now I'm so grateful we didn't because I see what trajectory she would have inevitably, inexorably, and tragically found herself on.

Now tongue out of cheek I just wanted to say that I very much agree with and appreciate this quote from Dr. Mom:

Of course how we dress sends messages to others about our hashkafa (and financial status, and social class, etc.). And of course we will tend to send our children to a place where they will feel comfortable.

BUT, there's a huge difference between saying "I'd prefer not to send my children to school X because I gather their hashkafa is a bit more liberal than ours, based on the style of dress of the mothers" vs. "the mothers there dress like sluts and bums."

mommy3b2c

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 12:38 pm

DrMom wrote:

Of course dress does broadcast certain messages. I simply object to the bizarre messages that some people ascribe to various articles of clothing.

The Uggs discussion here is just plain ludicrous. Someone doesn't want to send her child to school where the mothers of the children wear uggs. Why? Because she thinks this particular footwear can ONLY be worn with short, tight skirts and some sort of hosiery which she doesn't like, therefore she makes an illogical leap to UGGS=poor yiddishkeit. It's insane. Why not say you're against short tight skirts because of tznius issues, and leave the footwear out of it?

It's the same aggravating (il)logic that leads to rules like "no metal eyeglass frames" because metal frames are "modern" (they're not but ...) and we don't want to catch "modern" cooties, and we don't want anyone to think we might have caught "modern" cooties, and we don't want our shidduchim compromised because someone thinks we caught "modern" cooties, and we will keep metal-eyeglass wearers (or Ugg-wearers) out of our schools so that we won't be mixing with the (ahem) wrong sort. You know, the "bummy" sort. It's snobbery based on the most superficial and picayune details -- details that have *absolutely nothing* to do with yiddishkeit.

Many of your points, very well put. You used the uggs example, so I will too.

I wear uggs. So do my sons.so do the kids in their class, and so do their mothers. My sil would never wear uggs or put them on her kids. She however, does not think that uggs are in of themselves untznius. However, she would not send to my boys school, because most of the mothers dress in a certain way, that is not her "type" it is not the uggs per say, but the whole "look." Never once has my sister in law told me that she is more G-d fearing than I am. But she will say I am part of a more trendy crowd that she does not feel comfortable sending her kids to school with. She is correct. She still likes me and respects me.

If there were to be a yeshivish girl who completely dresses and acts the part but also wears uggs for warmth, I highly doubt she will be shunned. Most yeshivish girls wouldn't put them on though. Thats just the way it is.

Im sure there are people who will say uggs and denim, etc... Are untznius in and of itself. Those people are very misguided. And believe me, I have had discussions with such people and proved them wrong. But thAt is a whole separate discussion.

But I find it very offensive when posters come on here and knock the whole yeshivish community based on some misguided people. It is rude. It is sinas chinam, and it is just as wrong as the sinas chinam they accuse yeshivish people of.

Just wanted to add. All these rules: metal frames, uggs,etc... Are based on whats in style. Yeshivish people very often believe that it is not the best idea to wear anything in style. They will admit, there is nothing inherently wrong with the style, but they are staying away from it precisely because it is "in style."

amother

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 12:47 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

Anon because I'm nervousness that I may be attacked. But while I myself usually dont dress that way, I want my kids going to a school where some of the people do dress that way. I dont believe it is healthy for a kid to be in a group that is 90% or more of a particular extreme. It is best to be in a proper mix. Unfortunately it seems that schools like that are getting rarer and rarer. I honestly dont believe there is any school that is not really polarized to any particular way in my town.

Fox

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 12:57 pm

DrMom wrote:

Of course how we dress sends messages to others about our hashkafa (and financial status, and social class, etc.). And of course we will tend to send our children to a place where they will feel comfortable.

BUT, there's a huge difference between saying "I'd prefer not to send my children to school X because I gather their hashkafa is a bit more liberal than ours, based on the style of dress of the mothers" vs. "the mothers there dress like sluts and bums."

And no, I don't buy the argument "Oh, if you're not Chassidic, you won't understand this attitude; I cannot explain it to you." You can explain it very simply, if you wanted to: it's called being nasty, putting down people who are not like you, disrespecting others' hashkafot, and putting insularity above love and respect for your fellow Jews.

ITA with DrMom!

I'll add that I've never understood the compulsion so many people have to defend every single practice of the group to which they belong.

Believe me, there is no Torah derech that will crumble if any of its members privately or even publicly grumble about things from time to time. Nor is there any Torah derech or community that doesn't occasionally do goofball things, even l'shem Shemayim. It's okay to admit that.

The need to cover up or defend the failings or even goofy standards of our communities actually leads to less achdus, not more. Everyone falls into the "my dog's bigger than your dog" trap. If we can admit to one another that all of our communities have issues, people, and foibles that grate on our nerves -- despite our overall belief in our individual mesorahs and practices -- we can laugh about it; choose to handle our individual frustrations however we deem best; and encourage our friends and family to realize that there is no verifiable link between Uggs and s-xual promiscuity.

Oh, and using epithets to describe other people is tacky, low-class, and just plain wrong. Spankings and bedtime for anyone doing so.

Barbara

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 1:21 pm

sequoia wrote:

Look, this isn't about wildly different hashkafot! Clearly a Zionist MO or DL family isn't going to send to a Satmar school. Duh.

The question is, if a school suits you overall, if it's pretty much your "type," why is other mothers' dress the limiting factor, rather than price, location, class size, quality of instruction, etc?

All things being equal, why is the clothing style of other parents what matters?

Again: all things being equal.

I dropped out of this discussion after my rant, but FTR, this is pretty much what I meant. Chassidic people are going to look for a school whose teachings are, well, Chassidic. Of course.

But why isn't that curriculum more important than the fact that the mothers dress a certain way?

And FTR, since I've never in my life encountered a Chassidic woman dressed in any way, shape or form that comes within even the loosest (no pun intended) definition of "slutty," I really don't get it.

ally

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 1:27 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

And honestly, if you read through my posts, there is not one single post that would have anybody think that im okay with calling anyone names. I was just answering the original question. Why do people care.
I think I explained myself very well right from the start, but there are some posters on here who only ask these questions to put others down. They are not really looking for an answer. So when I answered right away in a way that was respectful to both sides, they starting picking my posts a part and accusing me of rediculous things such as being conformist, which is an absurd thing to say about me, of all people.

As I said before, I am neither yeshivish/chassidish or mo. Just trying to make peace.

I assume you are referring to me.
I still think that all the explanations in your post are about conformity. You are the one who said that the way that you dress defines whether you are part of a group or not. That means that the reason you dress the way you do, is to conform with a certain group.

Barbara

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 1:30 pm

black and white wrote:

Just as a side note: why is there such a double standard in imamother between chassidishe mothers and MO? Why must the chassid mother understand your point of view and respect it as well when MO mothers cant seem to respect the chassids views and way of life? Not generalizing,but some mothers here come off extremely hard and on the attack. It is not a competition or a war,
Its just different worlds with different ideals and lifestyles. Cant we just be respectful of each others worlds? A good jew is a good jew no matter what backgrounds he comes from.
And no, I am not chassidish.

FTR, my original post did not refer to Chassidic women.

However, what got me so upset was one Chassidic woman referring to other Chassidic women as sluts. I don't see this as a right wing vs. left wing issue.

Carry on.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 1:41 pm

ally wrote:

I actuaaly don't think I was referring to you. (I'm having a hard time remembering who said what though, ive been arguing with so many, lol)

I wrote many posts, but the overall idea is that people who want to be included as part of a certain group, tend to dress similar to that group. Sheitel, hats, black tights, beige tights, etc...

Regardless, let me use myself as an example. On any given day, I am usually wearing either a short black pencil skirt or a short denim pencil skirt. Sometimes I wear a leather skirt. ( I will admit, it does not always completely cover my knee, I am working on that though) My sheitel is very long and slightly wavy. My tops are pretty much the latest style. So are my shoes. Now that it is the winter, I am usually in grey tights or leggings and either my Ugg style boots, or my camel boots that I love. My coat is short and fitted. The general picture is of a very style conscious, put together women.

Most of the women in my boys school dress the same way. Do a dress this way to conform to their style? Or did I choose the school because I fit in with them? Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

You decide.

black and white

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 1:41 pm

Calling a jewish mother a slut is demeaning, derogatory and absolutely unacceptable.
Any name calling is wrong in my opinion.
I encourage that we learn more of each other's worlds RESPECTFULLY so there shouldn't be such a great divide and disconnect.
After all aren't we all Hashem's children? What example are we portraying to our children if we cannot all respect each other???!!!
Barbara I dont think you meant to cause all the name calling and bashing going on here, and I hope in between the punches thrown, you got some answers!!

Last edited by black and white on Thu, Jan 02 2014, 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

Barbara

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 1:48 pm

Squishy wrote:

Has anyone bothered to look up the word slut?

According to Merriam-Webster the # 1 meaning is slovenly women - chiefly British. The #2A meaning is promiscuous and #2B is a saucy girl : minx.

A minx is defined as a s-xually attractive and playful girl who often causes trouble.

If the posters are using the term slut to refer to s-xually attractive women then it is not saying they are having adulterous affairs.

SLUT (dictionary.com)
noun
1.
an immoral or dissolute woman; harlot.
2.
Obsolete . a dirty, slovenly woman.

MERRIAM WEBSTER

chiefly British : a slovenly woman
2
a : a promiscuous woman; especially : harlot

Synonyms
bimbo [slang], chippie (also chippy), doxy (also doxie), fancy woman, hoochie [slang], hussy, Jezebel, minx, quean, floozy, tramp, trollop, wench, wh***

As the word was being used by a woman in Brooklyn, in my OP, I will assume she meant the US definition -- that the woman was a 'ho.

Honestly, if someone walked up to you and said, "you look like a slut," would you really think they meant that you were dressed sloppily?

ally

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 1:53 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

I don't think it matters. I think the idea of being defined by your clothes is sad. Whether it is coming from you, or other people are projecting on you. Especially when the definitions begin to be about minute differences - sparkly nail polish or clear, a denim skirt or black canvas. And it is the antithesis of what tznius is supposed to be about.

ally

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 1:55 pm

Barbara wrote:

I'll take minx. That's my favourite.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 2:11 pm

ally wrote:

It all depends. If your character is being defined by your clothes then that is very sad. Like if someone were to say, all people who wear denim skirts are nasty, that is sad and hateful. If your clothes defines you as Chassidic, modern orthodox, lubavitch, etc... that is neither sad or happy. It just is.

Amish people wear specific clothes, Pakistanis wear specific clothes, Satmar wears specific clothes. If you want to be included as part of those groups, dress that way. If you don't, you might just not be included. That's life.

Ms.MaryMack(inblack)

Thu, Jan 02 2014, 3:11 pm

DrMom wrote:

No it's not. I am not Chaddish but I understand. Would you send your daughters to a Meah Shearim school where they need to wear shawls? Probably not, since their hashkafa wouldn't be the same as yours.
There's a obviously a huge difference between mother's who wear slightly shorter skirts, and mothers who wear pants or don't cover their hair. The way people dress usually symbalizes who they associate with and what type of Hashkafa they have in their home. Schools can choose to reject someone based on the fact the mother isn't dressed in the way of their hashkafa. And yes, if the mothers in a specific school dress to kill, that is NOT the message I want to send my children. So, therefore I would NOT send my child to that school if there are other options.