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Syrian Edict on Gerim
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Do you think the Syrian Edict is correct according to the Torah and Halacha?
Yes  
 17%  [ 19 ]
No  
 55%  [ 59 ]
Don't know  
 26%  [ 28 ]
Total Votes : 106



southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 9:36 am
amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:
I think a bigger question is why is this community so assimilated that they were dealing with a lot of intermarriage? I understand trying to combat people converting just for marriage which is definitely not considered a valid conversion. I don’t understand shunning a ger tzedek. How would this help the assimilated Syrians? I would think they should work on making the religious Syrian community stronger.


I did look into it and they have a halachic source for it. They deny gerim any participation in the community in order to send the message that they want to remain insular.
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 9:50 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
Wow, this is an old thread, as an a syrian, I find it very offensive, that some people condsider this a violation of amitzvah d'orata.
The edict was written in accordance to Oseh Siyug LaTorah. Make a fence for protection.
To those not familar with the edict, it was written many years ago, when there were many problems of "sham" converts, who were just converting to marry Jewish people. Particularly in the 1920s , and being a very small community, at the time. The Rabbis decided to declare the edict.
The rabbis at the time decided to place a fence to protect the commuinity, from insincere conversions. and B'H it was renewed and the SY community is known to have very low intermarriage rates because of it.
We have no problems accepting children who are adopted and then decide to convert. There are quite a few of these children who were adopted and converted and has adapted the Syrian Minhigam.
And if there is a really sincere convert, they can always go to an Israel Beth Din.


It’s ridiculous to take offense to someone reminding of a Torah prohibition against an action. It is in fact a prohibition, a mitzvah against it, and repeated three times.

What about the signs posted in the shuls? You ONLY accept adoptions? That’s not the only case of conversion.
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 9:53 am
watergirl wrote:
WADR, SO MANY different groups make gezerim, add chumrahs, etc. Some literally add mitzvos to the torah and add halachos and look down on those who dont do what they decided to add. Other groups take away. They remove halachos, call halachos "chumrahs", and take away from the Torah. We ALL have our things. Each group. All Jews. There is a reason Moshiach is not here yet. We are not ready.

Its not for me or you to have respect for a group. Its for me and you to love all Jews because thats the mitzvah. Lets not use this edict as a reason to cause sinas chinam, klal yisrael cant afford it.


I respectfully disagree. This hurts the klal so how should we not want something else or to call it what it is?
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aliavi




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 9:56 am
southernbubby wrote:
Their community was being threatened because the boys sometimes came to America and worked to bring the parents to America but by the time that the parents came, the sons had chosen non-Jewish wives who had undergone quasi conversions but who had no intention of keeping community religious and cultural norms. Naturally this was not going to foster continuation of the culture.
As we see in the rest of American Jewish society, this happened all over, not just to Syrians and much of the non frum community is massively intermarried and barely affiliated with Judaism at all.
I don't think that they would view those people who converted through a valid Beis Din as non Jewish but they want to preserve their culture which basically means encouraging marriages within their community.


This edict has been reaffirmed multiple times. It may have had historical significance, but now the Syrian community is not of new immigrants.
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aliavi




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 9:57 am
southernbubby wrote:
I did look into it and they have a halachic source for it. They deny gerim any participation in the community in order to send the message that they want to remain insular.


Please post the source. TIA
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 10:08 am
aliavi wrote:
Please post the source. TIA
\

http://traditionarchive.org/ne.....n.pdf

Read the PDF. This is just the part at the end. DISCLAIMER - I found this through googleing. No claims by me that this is authentic. In any case, I'm glad I read this in its entirety (not just what I copy/pasted below. I feel I understand it better now. I am Breslov, so I know what it feels like to be misquoted, not understood, ridiculed, etc. So my intention of posting this is for understanding and in hopes that someone can gain appreciation for another group, like I did.

(And also fwow, this is not the first time in Jewish history when conversions were banned. There was a time when all conversions were banned - in Europe during the time of the bubonic plague.)

A SUBSEQUENT CLARIFICATION OF
THE ORIGINAL PROCLAMAnON

Adar 5706 (February 1946)
On thc 9th day of Adar I in thc ycar 5706 corresponding to the 10th
day of February, 1946, the rabbis of the community and the
Committee of Magen David Congregation once again discussed the
question of intermarriage and conversions. The following religious
rabbinic decisions were promulgated and accepted:
I. Our community will never accept any converts, male or
female, for marriage.
2. The rabbi will not perform any religious ceremonies for such
couples, I.e., marriages, circumcisions, bar mitzvahs, etc. In fact, the
Congregation's premises will be barred to thcm for use of any
religious or social nature.
3. The Mesadrim of the Congregation will not accord any
honors to the convert or one married to a convert, such as offering
him an Aliyah to the Sefer Torah. In addition, the aforesaid person,
male or female, will not be allowed to purchase a seat, permanently
or for the holidays, in our Congregations.
4. After death of said person, he or she is not to be buried on
the cemetery of our community, known as Rodfe Zedek, regardless
of financial considerations.

Seal of the Beth Din of Magen David Congregation
Chief Rabbi Jacob S. Kassin
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 10:17 am
southernbubby wrote:
Probably not kosher but then I am far from being any kind of halachic authority. Kohanim are prohibited from marrying female converts so there is a source in the Torah for prohibiting certain marriages.


It doesn’t seem you have an understanding of the issue or the halachic ramifications. Maybe not the best forum. We are to love the orphan, widow, and convert to answer your prior post’s question.

Just one consideration of the damage Jews: a beis din converts someone (legit-not after dating someone) and then later a community refuses to recognize that action? That undermines an entire beis din and the dayanim who have all attested to the yid’s status.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:02 am
It's against the Torah. Period. No rabbi has authority to decide for example that a community from now on doesn't have to observe Shabbat. And no rabbi has authority to decide which mitzvot the community will keep and which not to keep.

Love the ger is a mitzvah that is repeated so many times in the Torah and any community that disregards this is disregarding the Torah.

No person has the authority to decide which mitzvot are to keep and we don't have a Sanhedrin to decide, therefore, this edict goes against the Torah and I hope that the people that are making this mistake can do Teshuvah one day.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:04 am
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
It doesn’t seem you have an understanding of the issue or the halachic ramifications. Maybe not the best forum. We are to love the orphan, widow, and convert to answer your prior post’s question.

Just one consideration of the damage Jews: a beis din converts someone (legit-not after dating someone) and then later a community refuses to recognize that action? That undermines an entire beis din and the dayanim who have all attested to the yid’s status.


If they were actually undermining batei din and dayanim, I would have thought that actions would have been brought against them such as forbidding the rest of us from doing business with them, giving tzedukah to them or letting them attend Ashkenazi day schools and yeshivot; they would be as treif to the rest of us as gerim are to them.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:07 am
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
It's against the Torah. Period. No rabbi has authority to decide for example that a community from now on doesn't have to observe Shabbat. And no rabbi has authority to decide which mitzvot the community will keep and which not to keep.

Love the ger is a mitzvah that is repeated so many times in the Torah and any community that disregards this is disregarding the Torah.

No person has the authority to decide which mitzvot are to keep and we don't have a Sanhedrin to decide, therefore, this edict goes against the Torah and I hope that the people that are making this mistake can do Teshuvah one day.


Apparently they used a halachic judgement from Babylonian times that they could decide not to do a particular action to prevent the k'lal from sinning.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:09 am
aliavi wrote:
Please post the source. TIA


I would love to but I can't get the phone to do that. Maybe my DIL will do that when she comes.
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amother
Lawngreen


 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:12 am
southernbubby wrote:
If they were actually undermining batei din and dayanim, I would have thought that actions would have been brought against them such as forbidding the rest of us from doing business with them, giving tzedukah to them or letting them attend Ashkenazi day schools and yeshivot; they would be as treif to the rest of us as gerim are to them.


I’m not sure what else you would call disregarding a valid conversion. Conversions are done by dayanim who sit on a beis din. This edict is “treif”. That’s the point.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:13 am
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
It's against the Torah. Period. No rabbi has authority to decide for example that a community from now on doesn't have to observe Shabbat. And no rabbi has authority to decide which mitzvot the community will keep and which not to keep.

Love the ger is a mitzvah that is repeated so many times in the Torah and any community that disregards this is disregarding the Torah.

No person has the authority to decide which mitzvot are to keep and we don't have a Sanhedrin to decide, therefore, this edict goes against the Torah and I hope that the people that are making this mistake can do Teshuvah one day.


So you are saying our great Rabbis of the Syrian community did not think long and hard of the edict??
I will tell you it has protected the SY Community quite well. There were also Turkish immigrants who also came at the turn of the century and did not have an edict. They had ountnumbered the Syrian Immigrants at the time and let me tell you, there are hardly any turkish jewish remaining because they have intermarried .
The present day Syrian community has grown by leaps & bounds and is continuing to grow and being very mikrev the less observant.
We have grown tremendously in becoming more observant. And I thank the Rabbi's of the community who had the foresight and wisdom, in installing a fence to protect the community.
.
I take great offense in you saying our Rabbis are going against the Torah. They are far more knowlegable of the needs our communtiny in maintaining it's kedushah.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:19 am
aliavi wrote:
This edict has been reaffirmed multiple times. It may have had historical significance, but now the Syrian community is not of new immigrants.


I would imagine that some choose to leave the community in order to marry gerim. I am not sure how often it impacts most gerim. I rarely see anyone from the Syrian community ask for help from outsiders and outsiders would have a right to refuse if they are asked. I would think that if there was enough collective anger, others could boycott their businesses but we probably already shop elsewhere for other reasons.
I wonder why this doesn't seem to bother mainstream rabbonim; possibly because we are usually not trying to be part of their community. If it makes anyone feel better, email their chief Rabbi and tell him that you don't view him or his followers as valid Jews.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:22 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
So you are saying our great Rabbis of the Syrian community did not think long and hard of the edict??
I will tell you it has protected the SY Community quite well. There were also Turkish immigrants who also came at the turn of the century and did not have an edict. They had ountnumbered the Syrian Immigrants at the time and let me tell you, there are hardly any turkish jewish remaining because they have intermarried .
The present day Syrian community has grown by leaps & bounds and is continuing to grow and being very mikrev the less observant.
We have grown tremendously in becoming more observant. And I thank the Rabbi's of the community who had the foresight and wisdom, in installing a fence to protect the community.
.
I take great offense in you saying our Rabbis are going against the Torah. They are far more knowlegable of the needs our communtiny in maintaining it's kedushah.


You can say whatever you want, it is not going to change the fact that loving the convert is a mitzvah that is being disregarded in this community.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:26 am
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
I’m not sure what else you would call disregarding a valid conversion. Conversions are done by dayanim who sit on a beis din. This edict is “treif”. That’s the point.


Most gerim that I know live out their lives as Jews and are not affected by the edict at all. The Syrian community is not on their radar. I don't think that it even bothers them when they find out about it. They see the Syrian community as non-mainstream.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:48 am
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
You can say whatever you want, it is not going to change the fact that loving the convert is a mitzvah that is being disregarded in this community.


I would say that if a Syrian child went to a regular day school and excluded the child of a ger from a birthday party, they should have h3ll to pay for such a hurtful action but I wonder if things like that ever happen.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 11:54 am
[quote="amother [ Plum ]"]You can say whatever you want, it is not going to change the fact that loving the convert is a mitzvah that is being disregarded in this community.[/quote


Like I stated earlier, a Fence was drawn up to protect in case of the sham conversion. The Rabbis involved have done this with the intention to be a safeguard. And we can love the adopted children who are geirim, so the mitzvah in not entirely disregarded in this community. We have plenty of adopted as children Geirim, who we have no-issues with. My own uncle has adopted children, and they are completely accepted, married to community members and attend community yeshivas.So you are disparaging and saying an outright lie, in saying we don't accept Geirim at ALl, because we do, but only if they were adopted as children.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 12:01 pm
[quote="amother [ Puce ]"]
amother [ Plum ] wrote:
You can say whatever you want, it is not going to change the fact that loving the convert is a mitzvah that is being disregarded in this community.[/quote


Like I stated earlier, a Fence was drawn up to protect in case of the sham conversion. The Rabbis involved have done this with the intention to be a safeguard. And we can love the adopted children who are geirim, so the mitzvah in not entirely disregarded in this community. We have plenty of adopted as children Geirim, who we have no-issues with. My own uncle has adopted children, and they are completely accepted, married to community members and attend community yeshivas.

All communities worry about sham conversions, some communities have taken to only accepting gerim that converted in Israel by a competent Beit Din. So make it stringent, but prohibiting just leads to more problems, like people actually lying about their background.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Fri, Jul 19 2019, 12:08 pm
Just as an FYI
The edict was first created in Argentina then adapted in Brazil and Brooklyn.
Not sure how Panama stands with the edict
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