Syrian Edict on Gerim

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:10 pm

[quote="amother [ Puce ]"]

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

You can say whatever you want, it is not going to change the fact that loving the convert is a mitzvah that is being disregarded in this community.[/quote

Like I stated earlier, a Fence was drawn up to protect in case of the sham conversion. The Rabbis involved have done this with the intention to be a safeguard. And we can love the adopted children who are geirim, so the mitzvah in not entirely disregarded in this community. We have plenty of adopted as children Geirim, who we have no-issues with. My own uncle has adopted children, and they are completely accepted, married to community members and attend community yeshivas.So you are disparaging and saying an outright lie, in saying we don't accept Geirim at ALl, because we do, but only if they were adopted as children.

There are some big faults in your argument
A) One bad conversion doesn’t make them all bad. Not all are “shams”. That’s a hateful denigration of your fellow yidden. There’s no need to be protected from a sincere yid!

B) Adoption isn’t the only situation of conversion. That’s not a lie. The Torah itself doesn’t specify that the mitzvah refers only to adoptions, and I’m aware of no commentary that does either. In short, they ARE doing something they shouldn’t.

C) SYs need to be a part of the Klal. Not just SYs. This position doesn’t help and build achdus with Jews, it makes SYs elite.

southernbubby

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:23 pm

The Syrian Jews send their kids to secular colleges. The edict probably keeps some of them on the straight and narrow.

After living in the same building with Netura Karta, the Syrians and their elitehood seem almost friendly. I'm not sure how many geirim that the NK let's in but if the geirim are lucky, the the answer is zero. Maybe for the geirim Syrian rejection is a blessing in disguise.

amother

Maroon

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:24 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

C) SYs need to be a part of the Klal. Not just SYs. This position doesn’t help and build achdus with Jews, it makes SYs elite.

Syrian jews need to follow their poskim, as do the rest of us. If anything, poskim and gedolim would have to approach their poskim and gedolim to discuss the specifics of halacha. And being that a lower bais din (ie, our generation) doesnt repeal a higher one (ie, previous generations), it likely wouldn't happen.

thunderstorm

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:38 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Actually NK is notorious to be made up of loads of geirim who nebach don’t know that it’s not yiddishkeit. I know a few geirim that have fallen in to NK’s jaws.

amother

Plum

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:44 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Syrian Jews and any yid should follow chachamim and the Torah. If a gadol makes a decree that is against the Torah, you should not go after that.

The major issue here is trying to validate a norm against chachamim and the Torah.

Unfortunately nowadays people revere rabbis more than they respect the Truth and the Torah.

amother

Blue

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 3:47 pm

I did not read the entire post
But
I did want to put in my 2cents.

I am of Turkish background
My grandparents went from Turkey to Cuba
My parents Cuba to America
The Sephardim of Cuba were 90% Turkish

Our community did not adapt the edict.
We were all taught the dangers of inter-marriage from home, not to mingle with non jews at all.

Today the Cuban Turkish community is lost
Most of the ppl my age, who I grew up with intermarried

It’s very sad 😢

B”H I married a Syrian
And I know just a handful of us Cuban Turkish that did not inter marry did the same.

amother

Puce

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 4:06 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

and this is the reason, my friends, for the Syrian Community Edict. Because it works.

And for those who say it against Halachah, I have yet to hear any Ashkenaz Rav denounce r speak out against it.

amother

Plum

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 4:10 pm

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

and this is the reason, my friends, for the Syrian Community Edict. Because it works.

And for those who say it against Halachah, I have yet to hear any Ashkenaz Rav denounce r speak out against it.

Even Rav Ovadia Yosef spoke against this.

I know many people of Turkish descent that did not assimilate. Then again, they went from Turkey to Israel, instead of Cuba.

How about an edict against living outside Israel?

Oh wait, that's actual halacha. Very Happy

Shabbat shalom

amother

Aubergine

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 4:34 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Shabbat shalom

Quote Rabbi Ovadya Yosef. Because that's not actually what he said. In any case, it was the Rabbanim in the US who made this edict, so Rabbi Ovadya Yosef does not have jurisdiction in America.

Oh, and it is NOT halacha not to live outside of Eretz Yisroel. See? You can also make up your own halachos.

And FYI, it's the Rabbanim who pasken, you can't just open a chumash and make your own halachos.

amother

Red

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 11:30 am

southernbubby wrote:

Most gerim that I know live out their lives as Jews and are not affected by the edict at all. The Syrian community is not on their radar. I don't think that it even bothers them when they find out about it. They see the Syrian community as non-mainstream.

I’m a giyoret and am bothered by the Syrian edict. Don’t know how many gerim you know and why they wouldn’t be bothered by an edict that definitely seems them as second class.

amother

Lawngreen

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 6:39 pm

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

I think what the poster is talking about is a case where SYs refused to accept a conversion of a person that he himself attested to the sincerity of and that was not done with any intention of marriage. He flew to Brooklyn to personally state it. They STILL refused the person.

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/1......html

Re: the bold That’s a big claim to make. And more than chutzpah to say he’s wrong. He’s the Sephardi Chief Rabbi.

amother

Aubergine

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 7:01 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

This was the story I was referring to as well.

Guess what? It's the truth. This is how halacha works. A Rav can only pasken for his community. Rav Ovadya Yosef is a great Rabbi, but ultimately the Rabbanim in the community in America are the ones that are able to pasken.

Maybe you think they paskened wrong and should have listened to Rav Yosef, but it doesn't matter. In the end that was the psak, and that's what stands.

amother

Lawngreen

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 7:34 pm

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

Sorry, I guess you didn’t read to the end where even SY families decided to follow R’ Yosef, or read page 1 of this forum where there’s a letter posted from a SY rav. You’re defending something that’s indefensible.

southernbubby

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 7:37 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

I’m a giyoret and am bothered by the Syrian edict. Don’t know how many gerim you know and why they wouldn’t be bothered by an edict that definitely seems them as second class.

I know and am close with plenty of gerim and never heard them mention Syrians. Gerim can tell their children and grandchildren to avoid any and all associations with Syrians because they are unacceptable to Ashkenazi families and that they can get better shidduchim if they avoid them. Sorry to any offended Syrians but everyone has to look out for their own.
I am not sure how often it is even an issue but if you are a giorus whose kids are in danger of meeting Syrians warn them that you better not hear that they are being friends with them. Turn the second class status around so that you are rejecting them.
If you are still not convinced that I know some gerim, then p.m. me so that we can play Jewish geography.

amother

Mint

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 9:23 pm

I’m a giyores. Since the beginning of my “journey” I knew about the Syrian edict .
It goes beyond the siryan community , Moroccan and Sephardic communities in general are very weary of gerim.
I know as well there is another edict or is it a part of the same ? It basically says that up to 3 generations the kids and grandchildren of a ger are not considered Jews.
I know some geirim make it though their filters but when it comes about marrying that’s a whole different matter .
Sitting in a Sephardic shul I started looking around and I realized it wasn’t meant for me, that was not my place nor final destination .
I ended up in a chassidish community, married a FFB , my kids married within our chassidus ,they’re proud of carrying their father mesorah, so you see alienation can go both ways .
This edict is not based on Halacha it only concerns one community .
If you’re a ger or are in the process to become one you’ll have to find a community that’s accepts you and your children as equals. I know many geirim who come from anusim feel hurt they can’t continue their great grandparents Costumes or called themselves Halachally Sephardic.
BH Judaism got so many colors ! For every bad encounter or comment you get you’ll find 10 embracing and loving ones.

Just keep this in mind
Megilllas Ruth = Meshiach
Ani Maamin

MrsEsther

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 9:56 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

Just as an FYI
The edict was first created in Argentina then adapted in Brazil and Brooklyn.
Not sure how Panama stands with the edict

Exactly! In The year 1920 R’ Shaul Sutton (lived 1851-1930) In Argentina had this idea and got Haskamot from Aram Soba Bet Din in Israel and Bet Din Of ashkenaz R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank. He wrote a Sefer called Dibber Shaul (1927) explaining it in great length.

Last edited by MrsEsther on Sun, Jul 21 2019, 8:14 am; edited 1 time in total

cbg

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 5:20 am

The problem comes in this scenario
Boy meets not Jewish girl
Not Jewish girl converts for convenience of marriage, obvious they don’t keep mitzvot AT ALL
They have kids
Family goes to shul RH, YK
Shul has youth group
Kids get interested in youth group to meet up socially.
Jewish boy gets involved with girl of one of these kids.
After being boy friend/girl friend for a few years they start getting interested in mitzvot, Shabbat, davening
They get married
What’s the status?

lavendar

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 6:17 am

I can understand why ppl are bothered by this edict. As a Syrian though I would like to clarify one thing. It is not that we don’t consider gerim to be Jewish or accept them as Jews. We do ..... the edict is to prevent community members from marrying converts. Some have married converts and moved to other communities. But the nature of the community is that most ppl want to stay. Many Syrians live a Hollywood lifestyle if not for this we would have many celebrities and super models as mothers in our community. Many community members who would potentially be converting woman are not even shomer Shabbat not sure how kosher of Conversion that would be. This was to prevent bogus conversions solely for the sake of young men being able to date and marry whoever they want. It may not be a politically correct edict but it definitely worked. For a community that has many modern families who’s children mingle with non jews to have a less then 1% intermarriage rate is pretty impressive. It is the same way in Mexico, Panama Argentina . Which also have a big sy community. All sy community’s around the world mimic each other with its strengths and challenges.
I actually know young woman who converted she was drawn to our community she prayed in sy shuls and was very welcomed. She knew she could not marry within our world but said when I meet someone I’ll go somewhere else. ( yes I feel bad but she was okay with it and as a single woman she was very accepted)
I know another ger who a sy rabbi helped with his conversation but advised him to move out of town where his future children can have a better life. The man did and he is still close with the sy rabbi till today.
I know another boy adopted my ashkenaz parents in the neighborhood his birth parents were not Jewish. Somehow someway he became friends with sy kids. He’s completely accepted and even married an sy girl.
My point is to say we don’t accept converts as Jews is really stretching it. It was meant to prevent our youth from thinking they can marry out and simply convert whoever they fall in love with. Of course there will be times were it seems unfair that’s forsure . But over all it has saved us.