imposing minhagim/ girls and candle-lighting

Imaonwheels

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 5:21 am

There is a machlochet and ignoring it won't help. You are not me and I am not you. I feel sorry for the group here if acknowldgement would hurt the interaction we have on the forum. If you want to help separate what you feel is improper hashkafa with individuals. In a purely intellectual discussion (we all go to our own LOR for practicalities, right) I described the scientific basis for the Rebbe Rashab's shita for mikva and how it automatically also fulfills the other shitas. The post before mine was a woman who said her LOR said not to use a Lubavitch mikva if it did not also meet one of the other shitos. Immediately after my post the previous woman came in fast and furious about how her rav's opinion was also legitimate and I was insulting him and so on. We were talking sources and reasoning, not politics. Unfortunately not many BTs (or women FFBs) are taught to move among the sources and falling back on recriminations is their only line of defence.

The regular people can't even begin to fulfill the mitzva of ahavas Israel properly until small people get over their small jealousies.

shalhevet

Thu, Mar 22 2007, 6:34 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

I described the scientific basis for the Rebbe Rashab's shita for mikva and how it automatically also fulfills the other shitas. The post before mine was a woman who said her LOR said not to use a Lubavitch mikva if it did not also meet one of the other shitos.

Just FYI, a Chabad mikva is built on a different shita, and many rabbonim hold that it should not be used. Our rav also paskens that I should not use a Chabad mikva. I don't know where the post you are referring to is, so I can't comment, but everyone should ask their own rav and not rely on a 'scientific base'.
BTW, I don't think this has anything to do with other machlokes between Lub and yeshivish - I think it is just two different shittos in halacha.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 4:24 am

GR wrote:

Quote:

shalhevet wrote:
many rabbonim hold that it should not be used.

Please provide names.

The word "many" is grossly exaggerated. I know of one person, a celebrated rosh yeshiva, who called the children of those who use a Chabad mikva, "bnei niddos."

Motek, probably the "many Rabbonim" all follow this one statement.

That is true. It happened when I was in Israel and immediately afterwards posters were hung in BB saying that the following mikvaos are "questionable" and should not be used. That is the entire origin for any prob w/Chabad mikvaos. On another forum a MO guy who is very learned had a good laugh at the necessity to go to such lengths as to obscure the fact that the Rebbe Rashab's shita automatically fulfills the others requirements. That is taking advantage of the fact that most women don't know anything about halacha of building mikvaos.

In Kfar Tapuach this issue came up as the person who raised the money, supervised the building and got all the permits to build their mikva was Lubavitch. She did this as the shaliach and brought expert opinions from the major experts in this field from all different groups. The other group thought they could force her to not build it Chabad because the rav is 'one of ours' but he paskened that it should be built Chabad as the most hiddur and suitable for the entire yishuv. He is not only not Chabad but very far from Chassidus of any kind. In the next yishuv they had no choice but to put their cards on the table and go to the secular court and have the building of a private Chabad mikva on the shaliach's property stopped because they are a dati yishuv and 'Chabad is not part of Orthodox judaism' of course the secular court concurred. The Israeli supreme court was handed a precedent for being able to determine what is a kosher mikva by the rav and religious council of that yishuv.

shalhevet

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 5:14 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

GR wrote:

Quote:

shalhevet wrote:
many rabbonim hold that it should not be used.

Please provide names.

The word "many" is grossly exaggerated. I know of one person, a celebrated rosh yeshiva, who called the children of those who use a Chabad mikva, "bnei niddos."

Motek, probably the "many Rabbonim" all follow this one statement.

That is true. It happened when I was in Israel and immediately afterwards posters were hung in BB saying that the following mikvaos are "questionable" and should not be used.

I don't know why people here feel the need to take this as some Chabad/ anti-Chabad fight. There are two shitos in halacha for building a mikva. That's all. If my rov says not to use the Chabad shita that is nothing to do with being anti-Chabad; simply that there is another opinion which we follow. I don't know what was written on the posters, but yes others pasken that the other shita is better. It is absolutely nothing to do with Chabad per se, but with the way the mikva is built.

Quote:

That is the entire origin for any prob w/Chabad mikvaos. On another forum a MO guy who is very learned had a good laugh at the necessity to go to such lengths as to obscure the fact that the Rebbe Rashab's shita automatically fulfills the others requirements. That is taking advantage of the fact that most women don't know anything about halacha of building mikvaos.

I would imagine that our extremely learned (and who hates any kinds of politics) rov has not been taken advantage of that he doesn't know anything about halacha of building mikvaos.

Quote:

In Kfar Tapuach this issue came up as the person who raised the money, supervised the building and got all the permits to build their mikva was Lubavitch. She did this as the shaliach and brought expert opinions from the major experts in this field from all different groups. The other group thought they could force her to not build it Chabad because the rav is 'one of ours' but he paskened that it should be built Chabad as the most hiddur and suitable for the entire yishuv. He is not only not Chabad but very far from Chassidus of any kind. In the next yishuv they had no choice but to put their cards on the table and go to the secular court and have the building of a private Chabad mikva on the shaliach's property stopped because they are a dati yishuv and 'Chabad is not part of Orthodox judaism' of course the secular court concurred. The Israeli supreme court was handed a precedent for being able to determine what is a kosher mikva by the rav and religious council of that yishuv.

If most of the people in a place are Chabad then they should build a mikva according to their minhag and if most people in a place hold by a different shitta then they should have their say, just like in any other minhag. I am getting sick and tired about hearing and reading about Chabadnikim who feel it their duty to push their particular minhagim on other frum Jews. An extreme example (I doubt that it is representative) was the thread when someone non-Lubavitch was made to toivel by the Chabad mikva matron according to her minhag. I have also heard of numerous cases of Chabad rabbonim coming to a community and wanting to impose their minhagim.

Coming back to the mikva. In our town they recently opened a new mikva (built by the National Council for Taharas Hamishpacha and the municipality). There are two boros there - one Chabad and one not. Each woman can prepare in one of the rooms and go from there to whichever mikva she wants. Smile

bashinda

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 8:24 am

A lot of people have no clue what their family minhag is. Lubavitchers are doing the right thing by introducing them to any minhag here. So for instance if the person doesn't have a minhag on lighting candles it's perfectly okay for a Lubavitcher to have someone they're introducing mitzvos to to also have their 4 year old bentch licht. Now if this family has a minhag which says girls don't bentch licht and they know about it then they're in the wrong.

I was by someone's house for Shabbos and one of her daughter's friends was sleeping over and the friend said she didn't light at home and the woman of the house was pushing her to light and yes, that is clearly wrong. She should have respected her minhag not to light, but she also has a woman and her daughter who come over for yomim tovim and she has them light and here I agree because whatever family minhagim they had are unfortunately completely lost. That's part of what it means to be an assimilated Jew for quite a lot of people unfortunately.

Maybe in Israel it's clearer. My family was from white Russia but I have no clue if they were Lubavitch or not. They could have been Lubavitch they could have been "Litvish."

Btw, if it's fallen out of use would you rather they not do mitzvos and keep their minhagim which they aren't following anyway or have them do mitzvos with Lubavitch minhagim? Isn't it better that they're doing mitzvos? Now in some instances people should have been referred to someone who knows other minhagim but what if there isn't that option? Isn't it better they're doing mitzvos?

Also if it's fallen into disuse for three generations than for all practical purposes it's lost becasue who's alive to remember it?

gryp

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 9:02 am

btw, Imaonwheels, where do you get your meat from? I was told that there is no such thing as Lubavitcher Shechita in Israel.

Quote:

Btw, if it's fallen out of use would you rather they not do mitzvos and keep their minhagim which they aren't following anyway or have them do mitzvos with Lubavitch minhagim? Isn't it better that they're doing mitzvos? Now in some instances people should have been referred to someone who knows other minhagim but what if there isn't that option? Isn't it better they're doing mitzvos?

It seems like you just can't win. When a Shliach becomes the Rabbi of an Orthodox shul way out in Hicksville and promises not to touch the Mechitza, change the Nussach of davening, and let the Minyan continue on as it always did, people are pointing fingers saying "how dare this be happening." But when a Shliach actually does convince them to take on certain Mitzvos, people are still pointing fingers and still saying "how dare you."
whatever.

shalhevet

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 10:31 am

bashinda wrote:

But no one has this minhag except Lubavitch. That is my whole point - why do Lub think they have to push their minhag (and this is one that is highlighted in all kinds of campaigns) onto people when the vast majority don't come from Lub families.

Quote:

I was by someone's house for Shabbos and one of her daughter's friends was sleeping over and the friend said she didn't light at home and the woman of the house was pushing her to light and yes, that is clearly wrong. She should have respected her minhag not to light, but she also has a woman and her daughter who come over for yomim tovim and she has them light and here I agree because whatever family minhagim they had are unfortunately completely lost. That's part of what it means to be an assimilated Jew for quite a lot of people unfortunately.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Lub are often aggressive in pushing their minhagim onto others. But many, many assimilated Jews still know where their family was from and can check out their minhagim. For example, dh's family were originally from a particular Chassidus. His grandfather was already MO, but even though we are Litvish dh asked our Litvish rov and he told us to do various Chassidishe minhagim, such as not eating gebrokts on Pesach even though it hadn't been done in his family for 3 generations.

Quote:

Maybe in Israel it's clearer. My family was from white Russia but I have no clue if they were Lubavitch or not. They could have been Lubavitch they could have been "Litvish."

OK, so you don't know. So you can ask a rov which minhagim to do. I understand you are Lub anyway.

Quote:

I still don't understand why it isn't an option for a Lub shaliach to teach mitzvos but when it comes to minhagim to help everyone keep according to his family/ community minhag. Every sheves (tribe) has a different path to Hashem and it is not right for one group to be vocal in pushing their minhagim on others.

Once we get beyond minhagim it is even more problematic.
A true story: A MO Jew sold his chometz through the rav of his shul every year. Then Lub started sending him letters that he should sell through them. He decided: why should he go to the bother of going to his rav when he could just sign and return it in the envelope provided? So that's what he does now. The problem is that when he sold it through his rav he signed on the actual shtar (document) and now he just signs the slip, which is halachically much more problematic. Now I'm sure that the Chabad group in England which sends this to him means well (and is also happy to get his donation) but why didn't they write in the letter that it is preferable to sign directly on the shtar?

Quote:

Also if it's fallen into disuse for three generations than for all practical purposes it's lost becasue who's alive to remember it?

That's just not true. Anyway, if they're not sure of their minhag why should they davka take on a Lub minhag than a more mainstream Ashkenazic one (not to mention if they're Sephardi).

gryp

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 10:59 am

Firstly, most of the things you can think of off the bat are referred to as Minhag Yisroel, not necessarily Minhag Chabad.

Secondly- picture this:
A) A shliach finally scrapes together 10 people for a minyan, but oops, we can't start... he has to ask which one: which nusach did your great grandfather daven? which nusach did you used to daven? which nusach would you like to daven?

or

B) A shliach gets 50 people for his Seder, and has to figure out what each one's ancestor held as a Kzayis for the matzah. Or maybe at the world's largest seder which took place last year- 1500+ people in Katmandu.

Bottom line, Shalhevet, you're not thinking practically. Have you ever seen a Jew who has no clue what a Yarmulke is? Or what Mazel Tov means? And you expect them to find out their family minhagim?

I don't agree with being too aggressive, but you know, different things "work" for different people. Since I've never seen a situation like that, I'm not going to judge anything until I see a whole story for myself.
The stories I have seen for myself are one like the Shliach who allows his Litvishe guest every single week at his Shabbos table to sing Zemiros when it's not Minhag Chabad to sing them.

And sometimes, just sometimes, a little "aggressiveness" is necessary. I was once at a Shabbos table by a non-Lubav Rabbi who does Kiruv out in the middle of nowhere. We were just about to start Kiddush when a not-yet-frum Jew came to the house for a few minutes. The Rabbi invited him to stay but he declined. And just like that, to my utter disbelief, the man left the house. I felt like standing up and shouting: HELLO. YOU JUST LET A FELLOW YID WALK AWAY FROM THE SHABBOS TABLE. That would never happen at a Chabad house. (And then the Rabbi proceeded to make fun of me for not making Kiddush between 6-7 o'clock. (I had made Kiddush before he came home.) Rolling Eyes

)

bashinda

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 11:05 am

Most assimilated Jews are simply that, assimilated. They don't know their minhagim. Now when teachimg someone mitzvos you're automatically going to choose a minhag. What do you think aish does? Or ohr sameach? or Neve? When they're teaching halachos for let's say Pesach do they go out of their way to teach all the different minhagim in detail or do they teach their own? They teach their own set of minhagim. A friend of mine went to Shearim and the teacher wasn't even that respectful towards people who don't eat gebruchts and that's not just a Lubavitch minhag even!

I agree that if someone knows their minhagim that should be respected and it's wrong not to respect that but if it's a question of the person is going to do a mitzvah with Lubavitch minhagim or not doing a mitzvah at all I'll choose the former everytime. Lubavitch isn't about pushing minhagim but about pushing mitzvos. You want to teach your minhagim gezeunterheit go out and do mivtzoim!

And about asking a Rav, I wasn't frum and it would never have occurred to me at that point to ask a Rav. Please, let's talk real life here. My grandmother who should live and be well ad meah esrim grew up frum maybe MO I'm not sure but left frumkeit when she got married at a young age. She probably doesn't even remember some of the stuff she grew up with. I don't think I'm alone here at least not in the U.S. I don't have the ability to have a chat with my alter bubbes and zeides in himmel to ask them what my minhag is. B"H, I now am frum and walking in their ways and I doubt they're upset that I don't follow their minhagim (although like I said maybe I am and I don't know it)

I know that our Rebbe was very respectful by the way of minhagim and I do recognize its' importance. The Rebbe told some people not to discard their levush when they became Lubavitch for instance, and some people are probably pushing Lubavitch minhag in appropriate ways but I' guess that in a large if not majority of instances shluchim are acting appropriately.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 12:21 pm

Falsehood that has been spread too much - it a Lubavitch only thing that little girls light. Many, many families had this minhag for generations and gave it up for various reasons.

Another falsehood spread - that a child under BM doing something for chinuch can ever say a brocho l'vatela. Unless, possibly if the child will not say a brocho on that mitzva as an adult, like many mitzvos Sefardi women do mitzvos they are not chayav w/o a brocho.

Shalhevet: As to my Kfar Tapuach example, why did you assume the majority of families were Lubavitch? Less than 10 families out of nearly 150 are Lubavitch in Tapuach. We and most Lubavitchers in Itamar and Elon Moreh use it as well. This may bring the count up to 30 families from around 1000. Can it be hard to hear that a nonchassidishe rav in a community where approx 4% of the families are Lubavitch and now have no shaliach to push (my friend who built the mikva has since left), has paskened that the Lubavitch mikva is the most mehudar.

poelmamosh

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 12:29 pm

Quote:

bashinda wrote:
A lot of people have no clue what their family minhag is. Lubavitchers are doing the right thing by introducing them to any minhag here. So for instance if the person doesn't have a minhag on lighting candles it's perfectly okay for a Lubavitcher to have someone they're introducing mitzvos to to also have their 4 year old bentch licht. Now if this family has a minhag which says girls don't bentch licht and they know about it then they're in the wrong.
shalhevet wrote:
But no one has this minhag except Lubavitch. That is my whole point - why do Lub think they have to push their minhag (and this is one that is highlighted in all kinds of campaigns) onto people when the vast majority don't come from Lub families.

I am that shliach (shlucha) who... really, though, we are on shlichus on a college campus, and yes, we do encourage (unmarried) girls to light Shabbos candles on account of the Rebbe's candlelighting campaign (there are a group of women, not CHabad per se, but Chabad-influenced, who recently started a project called fridaylight - www.fridaylight.org, we use their materials) I encounter girls who are resistant, since they grew up in traditional homes and only their mothers lit, or those who were touched by other, non-Chabad kiruv institutions and say "that's not my minhag". (huh?)
My response? I tell them that the Rebbe, in encouraging girls to light from 3, spoke about this not being a Chabad minhag or one that the he "made up" but a universal Jewish one - it got lost in the days when candles were not readily available (like in wartime) and only the bare minimum got lit by the mother. If they still insist on not lighting, I don't push.

I have seen, though TIME AND TIME AGAIN, how girls who begin to "just" light candles friday night (it seems so easy and it's very spiritually gratifying) start to take on more and more mitzvos, and quite a few became shomer shabbos in this way. (refer to the thread about minhagim of the seder on this site, where someone talks about the order of the mah nishtana...)