imposing minhagim/ girls and candle-lighting

Ruchel

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 11:57 am

shalhevet wrote:

I don't know why people here feel the need to take this as some Chabad/ anti-Chabad fight. There are two shitos in halacha for building a mikva. That's all. If my rov says not to use the Chabad shita that is nothing to do with being anti-Chabad; simply that there is another opinion which we follow. I don't know what was written on the posters, but yes others pasken that the other shita is better. It is absolutely nothing to do with Chabad per se, but with the way the mikva is built.

The contrary is true too. The Lubavichers in Dijon, France, had their own mikve built because apparently the original one is not good for them. I don't really know the whole story, but it caused a huge fight between them and the non Lubavich and now the atmosphere is a bit "heavy".

sarahd

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 12:14 pm

GR wrote:

Firstly, most of the things you can think of off the bat are referred to as Minhag Yisroel, not necessarily Minhag Chabad.

Secondly- picture this:
A) A shliach finally scrapes together 10 people for a minyan, but oops, we can't start... he has to ask which one: which nusach did your great grandfather daven? which nusach did you used to daven? which nusach would you like to daven?

or

B) A shliach gets 50 people for his Seder, and has to figure out what each one's ancestor held as a Kzayis for the matzah. Or maybe at the world's largest seder which took place last year- 1500+ people in Katmandu.

or

A shaliach settles in a major city in Lithuania and proceeds to remove all the nusach Ashkenaz siddurim from the shul and replace them with nusach Ari. Is that okay with you? Because the locals weren't keeping too many mitzvos, so why not introduce them to his way of davening?

[The local yokels were furious, because they may not have known as much about Torah and mitzvos as the shaliach, but one thing they did know was that Litvaks daven nusach Ashkenaz...and that the Gra was a misnaged. End result: the shaliach was thrown out of shul and was shunned by most.]

shalhevet

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 1:06 pm

GR wrote:

picture this:
A) A shliach finally scrapes together 10 people for a minyan, but oops, we can't start... he has to ask which one: which nusach did your great grandfather daven? which nusach did you used to daven? which nusach would you like to daven?

or

B) A shliach gets 50 people for his Seder, and has to figure out what each one's ancestor held as a Kzayis for the matzah. Or maybe at the world's largest seder which took place last year- 1500+ people in Katmandu.

Obviously I'm not talking about making a seder for 1000 assorted backpackers of every minhag under the sun. I agree that in such a position the person making the seder has every right to use his minhagim. But all the examples we've brought have been about individuals - telling women how to toivel, girls to light candles etc.

Quote:

Bottom line, Shalhevet, you're not thinking practically. Have you ever seen a Jew who has no clue what a Yarmulke is? Or what Mazel Tov means? And you expect them to find out their family minhagim?

Yes, of course I've seen such Jews. Of course I wouldn't ask them their family minhagim the first minute they walk through the door to have a Shabbos meal. But... if it was stam an Ashkenazi Jew and certainly Sephardi I would davke assume they were not Lub. So why would the first thing I do be to persaude the girl to light Shabbos candles?

I'm going to say again. There is no other group/ Chassidus/ whatever which tries and imposes its minhagim on others as being 'better'.

And I'm still waiting for an answer about the mechiras chometz episode.

Sarahd - thanks for bringing another example. Very interesting, but unsurprising.

TzenaRena

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 1:24 pm

Quote:

But no one has this minhag except Lubavitch. That is my whole point - why do Lub think they have to push their minhag (and this is one that is highlighted in all kinds of campaigns) onto people when the vast majority don't come from Lub families.

untrue. This has been the minhag of many, many chassidic courts, and not just other chassidus. it is also mentioned in the Aruch HaShulchan. If I'm not mistaken it was also the minhag in Brisk. This is all documented, but I can't research it now because of time constraints.

As one poster explained the minhag fell by the wayside during wartime, (along with the minhag to light an additional licht per child), when candles were so scarce that only the obligatory two were lit by the mother of the household.

Motek

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 1:26 pm

Very unusual, as is the story in Thailand, since the Rebbe made it quite clear that shluchim should NOT change the minhagim of those who have them. Got to differentiate between what the Rebbe said to do and those shluchim who do their own thing.

For example, when the Rebbe encouraged the making of model sedarim for the children of the Reshet Ohol Yosef Yitzchok schools in Israel, he gave the following instruction:

"Even though among the students of the Reshet there are certain differences in customs, and obviously these shouldn’t be tampered with as Chazal say not to change from the customs of one’s deceased ancestors’ - still, see to it to arrange it so that it does not conflict with their customs."

As for the mikva - it's not about a Chabad custom

It's about the Rebbe Rashab (d. 1920) who, as a posek, introduced a BETTER way of building a mikva. This is about HALACHA, nothing whatsoever to do with Chabad custom. This explains why R' Wosner INCLUDED the shita in the mikva he built, because it IMPROVES the mikva HALACHICALLY.

This is similar to the change the Alter Rebbe introduced in sharpening the shechita knife. It was a HALACHIC CHANGE and you know what? Everybody does it that way now. Know why? Because it's a HALACHIC improvement.

As far as selling the chometz, the Rebbe encouraged spreading the Alter Rebbe's way (using an "arev kablan") because NOT doing it this way, entails HALACHIC problems.

shalhevet

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 1:26 pm

bashinda wrote:

Most assimilated Jews are simply that, assimilated. They don't know their minhagim. Now when teachimg someone mitzvos you're automatically going to choose a minhag.

So why don't you teach them the minhag which is most probably theirs. You don't need a Masters in Jewish Geneology to know most Jews are not from Lub backgrounds. So go for a general Ashkenazi/ Sephardi/ Yemenite minhag as is appropriate.

Quote:

What do you think aish does? Or ohr sameach? or Neve? When they're teaching halachos for let's say Pesach do they go out of their way to teach all the different minhagim in detail or do they teach their own? They teach their own set of minhagim.

I can only answer for sure about Neve and they would never tell a Sephardi girl to keep Ashkenazi minhagim etc. Of course in class you can't go into 17 different minhagim, but you can give the generally accepted Ashkenazi minhag and if you have someone with a different background they would either mention it in class or help her with a one-on-one chat. I told you - no-one else apart from Lub is interested in pushing their own minhagim at the expense of other peoples.

Quote:

A friend of mine went to Shearim and the teacher wasn't even that respectful towards people who don't eat gebruchts and that's not just a Lubavitch minhag even!

Shearim is somewhat modern in its outlook. If you know something about MO Israeli society you will know that it also does not put a great deal of value on each group keeping its own minhagim. For example it encourages davenning with a Modern Hebrew accent, even for Ashkenazim.

Quote:

I agree that if someone knows their minhagim that should be respected and it's wrong not to respect that but if it's a question of the person is going to do a mitzvah with Lubavitch minhagim or not doing a mitzvah at all I'll choose the former everytime.

I still don't get why you have to choose.

Quote:

Lubavitch isn't about pushing minhagim but about pushing mitzvos. You want to teach your minhagim gezeunterheit go out and do mivtzoim!

Not everyone thinks that mitzvas need to be 'pushed', but that's already another discussion.

shalhevet

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 1:45 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

Falsehood that has been spread too much - it a Lubavitch only thing that little girls light. Many, many families had this minhag for generations and gave it up for various reasons.

Ok, but they don't have it now or even know it was once in their families. Why do Lub feel they have to push this. Aren't there enough mitzvas to teach girls which are their minhagim?

Quote:

Another falsehood spread - that a child under BM doing something for chinuch can ever say a brocho l'vatela. Unless, possibly if the child will not say a brocho on that mitzva as an adult, like many mitzvos Sefardi women do mitzvos they are not chayav w/o a brocho.

I've never heard this 'falsehood spread'. What you say is halacha accepted by everyone I think.

Quote:

Shalhevet: As to my Kfar Tapuach example, why did you assume the majority of families were Lubavitch? Less than 10 families out of nearly 150 are Lubavitch in Tapuach. We and most Lubavitchers in Itamar and Elon Moreh use it as well. This may bring the count up to 30 families from around 1000. Can it be hard to hear that a nonchassidishe rav in a community where approx 4% of the families are Lubavitch and now have no shaliach to push (my friend who built the mikva has since left), has paskened that the Lubavitch mikva is the most mehudar.

No, I didn't think that most people in Tapuach are Lub. What you are saying supports what I have been trying to say that it is a halachic difference of opinion as to which type of mikva is better and so everyone should be using the one her rav holds to be better and no-one should come and impose their rav's opinion on another group.

TzenaRena

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 1:55 pm

Quote:

But... if it was stam an Ashkenazi Jew and certainly Sephardi I would davke assume they were not Lub. So why would the first thing I do be to persaude the girl to light Shabbos candles?

Simple. Because: the Rebbe asked us to Exclamation

Looking beyond the petty partisan politics of stam opposing the Rebbe with no real halachically valid reason, there is a vast, dark and bitter Galus which we must illuminate. Sunny

Because: Every Shabbos candle adds cosmic light to the universe, and brings the light of Redemption, as it says in Yalkut Shimoni: im shemartem neiros shel shabbos, ani mareh lochem neiros shel tzion. The Rebbe sees this as the most powerful instrument to combat the darkness of Galus. It will bring light and inner peace to the woman or girl who lights the candles.

Every mitzvah has the potential to be the one that is machreah es atzmoi v'es kol haolam kulo l'chaf zchus, that tips the scale to bring the Redemption to Klal Yisrael and the entire world, as the RamBam says.
How much more so, a mitzvah that specifically is singled out as one for which we will merit the Geulah Exclamation

What right do we have to deny the young girl or the world that opportunity? She should at least be afforded the knowledge and choice about lighting.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Sun, Mar 25 2007, 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

chanab

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 2:35 pm

Shalhevet, Lubavitchers encourage others to light Shabbos candles because that is a Horaa of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Most things we do in bringing Jews back to Yiddishkeit are direct instructions from the Rebbe. Sure, we are human and make mistakes [as in Sarahd´s story, though if I know of which city she is talking, there is of course much more to that story] but bottom line we are out there bringing people back to Yiddishkeit. We don´t talk in theory. We do.
So any complaints with how we do things you are really taking up with someone much smarter than you and I.

TzenaRena

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 2:39 pm

The Rebbe likened the lighting of Shabbos candles by girls to the changes made by Sara Schenirer in educating girls and young women formally, something certainly unprecedented in Jewish history. The Beis Yaakov Movement became a cornerstone of Jewish religious life in all communities, although there was Jewish life before. Today it is unimagineable what would be without this new "minhag".

The Rebbe quotes Chazal: "bikah motzu, v'gadru boh geder." When there is a new danger, breach in Yiddishkeit, there is a need for a new emergency measure of extra strengthening of Yiddishkeit.
When the winds of secular culture and haskalah had entered pious Jewish homes via the outlook of Jewishly uneducated and secularly influenced women and girls, the very foundations of Yiddishkeit shook.
The geder that was created to correct this breach - formal education for girls - may have been unprecedented, but today no one will argue that it was uncalled for, or criticize someone for suggesting or "pushing" for a girl to receive a Torah education Exclamation

One of the reasons given by Chazal for lighting Shabbos candles is that it brings Shalom Bayis because it's light ensures "shelo yikashlu ba'etz uvo'even" that no one will stumble over wood or stones. The Rebbe explains that spiritually, the light of the Shabbos candles guard us from stumbling over spiritual obstacles, and brings inner peace.

When we realize just how significant this one act of a Jewish daughter is, and how much it will enhance her life and spiritual health, and growth, we will appreciate it's impact, and understand what a great thing it is for her, and all the Jewish nation. We will recognize it's value, instead of finding an excuse or misplaced criticism. In truth it is a minhag that can only add goodness for all, as surely as Jewish girls receiving a Beis Yaakov education.

If people were perfectly honest, if they were really opposed to taking on new or 'extra' minhagim, no matter what the benefit, they wouldn't be sending girls to school!

Last edited by TzenaRena on Sun, Mar 25 2007, 3:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

bashinda

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 2:58 pm

If you're going to choose to teach somebody something it's going to be in your nusach and your minhagim. That's just the way it is. Again, I know someone who was learning at Neve and had to learn Tanya "underground" without telling her teachers.

And you have to choose a set of minhagim to teach people. There's no null set here when it comes to teaching mitzvos. They come along for the ride.

It's extremely unreasonable to expect a shaliach to teach all the different people differently based on premises which may be faulty anyway. If the people don't know what their minhagim are there's no harm in teaching them Lubavitch minhagim.

I seriously don't get where you have to be upset about this. If you want to introduce what you think is proper minhagim gezeunterheit as I said before. You go out there and introduce mitzvos to people. Otherwise, I see it as disgruntled nitpicking.

sarahd: And if the Lithuanian town you're talking about is Vilna there is a different side of the story. I don't know which story is true but it goes very very differently from what this version of events...

Edit: to clarify I'm talking about situations where the person doesn't know what their minhag is. Like I said before, if their minhag is known that should be respected.

Last edited by bashinda on Sun, Mar 25 2007, 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

Motek

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 3:05 pm

Quote:

Motek, probably the "many Rabbonim" all follow this one statement.

Still waiting to hear the names of the "many rabbonim." It's baloney. The reason given by the sonei-most-of-Yisrael*-rosh-yeshiva was ludicrous. As I posted earlier, his statement would make you and me and most people be considered "bnei nidda" by him which is outrageous.

shalhevet wrote:

There are two shitos in halacha for building a mikva.

No, there are three (two forms of hashaka: side by side and bor al gabai bor, and zeria).

shalhevet wrote:

Hmmm, and you leave out Chasidic custom even though a huge percentage of those of Eastern European descent are of Chasidic stock.

As for knowing one's background, it's not simple at all for those from Eastern Europe. You could come from the Lithuanian town of Slutzk and think that everybody was Litvaks when that wasn't true. There were Chasidim living there too.

shalhevet wrote:

And I'm still waiting for an answer about the mechiras chometz episode.

I responded.

Quote:

Sarahd - thnks for bringing another example. Very interesting, but unsurprising.

Why is it unsurprising when the Rebbe urged, in numerous letters, that the family customs be preserved? Ruins the image you have of Lubavitchers who coerce non-Lubavitchers to take on Chabad customs?

* he made public statements against tinokim sh'nishbu, Chasidim in general, Chabad Chasidim in particular, and called all but a few people "bnei nidda"

TzenaRena

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 3:24 pm

Quote:

Ok, but they don't have it now or even know it was once in their families. Why do Lub feel they have to push this. Aren't there enough mitzvas to teach girls which are their minhagim?

Lighting Shabbos candles is a mitzvah specific to the Jewish woman/girl. It may take some time till a girl is old enough to have the independent ability to take charge of the kashrus in her home, and certainly till she can fulfill the tenets of Taharas Hamishpacha. Of the three mitzvos of women, lighting shabbos candles is a mitzvah that she can do immediately upon reaching the age of chinuch.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 5:02 pm

When they came to Israel, most of a tribe of Yemenites called chabani became Lubavitch. It was the decision of their rabbonim and that is the way they led their people. There is now an enormous kehila of Yemenite Chabadniks who are based in Moshav Bareket near Lod but they have huge branches in Rosh HaAyin, Marmorek, Shaarayim (Rechovot) and in all of the large Chabad communities - KC, Kiryat Malachi, Tzfas, etc. There are numerous letters of the Rebbe to the yeshiva in Lod, printed in the early volumes of Igros Kodesh, where the 1st generation was primarily educated. He instructs the yeshiva not to change their accent or minhagim. OTOH. my Yemenite sil was told by his Litvishe RY that under no circiumstances could the major Yemenite rabbonim be relied on and everyone from the edot mizrach in Israel today must hold by R' Ovadia Yosef. This even though he is Iraqi and most of the Sefardim are not. The difference between Iraqui and Yemenite is like the difference between Yekkes and Hungarians. By Ashkenazim kehilla is the detertminer and by Sefardim it is eidah. In Kiryat Malachi, one of the largest Chabad communities in Israel there are 3 shuls - Ashkenazi Chabad, Gruzini Chabad and Sefardi Chabad. In Rechovot (largest Yemenite community in Israel) there is Cheder Levi Yitzchak Chabad and Talmud Torah Darchei Avot - Yemenite Chabad. There is Yeshivas Tomchei Temimim Rechovot and Yeshivat Ohr Zarua - Ohr Yaakov named after R' Yaakov Mizrachi, the main Yemenite R' who brought the chabanim into Chabad. His son is RY and his daughter is a member of the national vaad hapoel of Nashei Chabad. It is interesting to see a Shabbos or simcha in their homes and see how they keep the Yemenite tradition jealously while conforming to Sefer Minhagim.

And if it is proper to find one's own minhag even if it was lost for a few generations, then all of those families who testified (major rabbinic families) that they once had the minhag of girls lighting should have a feeling of coming home instead of being made to feel guilty by people who are ignorant of history and think it is only for Lubavitchers. The deah that any prob w/girls lighting or any prob w/mikva Chabad were both created yesh m'ayin in my lifetime and have zero basis in classical psika.

DH learned in Ohr Sameach and came from Galitzianer chassidim. No one told him that he doesn't belong there and should go to a chassidishe yeshiva even though his parents are Holocaust survivors and remember when the family used to be reigious and where they came from. In fact he was taught total disrespect for his ancestors surpassed only by the disrespect he was taught for the shaliach in LA who mekarved him in the first place and the one who sent him to do that.

There can be animosity and not always mutual respect. That happens in cases of disagreement. The test is where is it? If it is confined to people who are unknowledgeable or argumentative by nature or is it at the top.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 5:05 pm

Quote:

Quote:

Another falsehood spread - that a child under BM doing something for chinuch can ever say a brocho l'vatela. Unless, possibly if the child will not say a brocho on that mitzva as an adult, like many mitzvos Sefardi women do mitzvos they are not chayav w/o a brocho.

I've never heard this 'falsehood spread'. What you say is halacha accepted by everyone I think.

This is the major reason I have heard many times to discourage frei people who have no cognizance of their families past minhagim to discourage them from letting their little girls light. Since it is unnecessary it is a brocho l'vatela. Something, as you correctly pointed out, is absurd for a 3 yr old.

Imaonwheels

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 5:22 pm

When I moved to Yitzhar and the Od Yosef Chai yeshiva the rav of the yishuv was very young and super strong DL. The Rosh Yeshiva was R' Yitzchak Ginsburgh. They jointly performed our wedding. When I walked into the Rav's ofc to tell him I was getting married he pulled a Sefer Minhagim from the shelf and called R' Ginsburgh as to how to advise me.

Times change. The Rav is older and moves in different circles now because some DL did not like the development of Chassidim and DL building a yishuv together and strengthening what they have in common. R' Ginsburgh left and the machloches roars in oiur yishuv to the point of trying to undermine and take our parnassa. When my son got married he also went into the same rav. This time he took no books from the shelf and proceeded to explain the 'halachas' to my son and in essence told him to do the opposite of minhag Chabad in every case. Now this son wears a kippa sruga but he comes from a Lubavitch family. Just as an example - he was told that it is preferrable to buy a ring from silver. In nigleh there is no preference other than something the kallah can wear immediately. But it is written specifically in Sefer Minhagim that a wedding ring should be gold for kabbalistic reasons. That is why gold wedding bands have been favored by most even though few people today learn kabbala or understand the various practices based on it that were incorporated into halacha or minhag.