imposing minhagim/ girls and candle-lighting

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Imposing minhagim/ girls and candle-lighting

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bashinda

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 8:49 pm

What's DL?

bashinda

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 8:51 pm

GR: the story if I've got the right one was in shmais awhile back. with um, a very different slant.

Motek

Sun, Mar 25 2007, 10:15 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

Another falsehood spread - that a child under BM doing something for chinuch can ever say a brocho l'vatela. Unless, possibly if the child will not say a brocho on that mitzva as an adult, like many mitzvos Sefardi women do mitzvos they are not chayav w/o a brocho.

Falsehood? It was the public psak of R' Ovadia Yosef, announced in the middle of Mivtza Neshek which was going full blast at the time. R' Itche Gansburg, one of the main people who got mivtza neshek going in Israel, said this psak undermined their effort.

sarahd

Mon, Mar 26 2007, 9:05 am

GR wrote:

sarahd, as I said, I'm not going to judge half a story. I have no idea what I would do if I were the Shliach there, except that I would try to make everyone as happy/comfortable as possible.

I must say that I'm a bit surprised that you mentioned the name of the place where the Shliach lives. Lashon Hara L'Toeles?

I didn't specify the place, you know. I heard the story from his MIL - maybe she doesn't like him so the details could have been off, but she's a very, very nice lady and I don't think there's anyone she doesn't like.

gryp

Mon, Mar 26 2007, 9:46 am

Then either you wrote the wrong place or I'm way out of it, because afaik there's only one Shliach in the place you mentioned and the story is completely different.

Imaonwheels

Mon, Mar 26 2007, 10:59 am

Motek wrote:

Imaonwheels wrote:

I know. That is why I mentioned Sefardi girls specifically. My dd lights in another room to bentch when in my house and my dil (learned in Sefardi BY) doesn't even light when they are guests. My dil didn't know the brocho by heart because she never lit in her parents' home and as a young couple they often eat out.

It is not a normative psak that a child is over on brocho l'vatela when doing something for chinuch. AFAIK, no one else holds that way.

BTW, many Sefardi women also don't want to bentch licht in the hospital after giving birth because they mistakenly think they shouldn't when niddah. But these are usually women who did not get a Jewish education and just remember pieces of what they saw by their mothers or GMs.

ganizzy

Mon, Mar 26 2007, 11:05 am

shalhevet - u keep on saying that chabad pushes their minhagim as opposed to everyone else. so tell me why many people delight in turning people off from lubavitch.

an example - and I know this firsthand - a group of russian boys were brought to a certain country to have a small yeshiva there and to help with the daily minyan. alot of the boys only got out of russia bc of chabad and many had their bris and frum edu. through chabad. well the head of this yeshiva came to the shaliach (the only lubavitchers in the country) and handed him a chitas saying "levi yitzchak wont be needing this anymore" he taught all the boys to hate chabad. one of the boys would go to help the shluchim for pocket money and after a while he stopped showing up - what happened - he was basically told not to go to chabad again. this shaliach doesnt make his own minyan but goes to the other ones in the city with no problem and attends their events. and of course helps them out with the yiddishkeit needs bc theres a big lack in that country.

there are many examples like this where people who became frum through lub. (they didnt know theyre minhagim or even that such a word existed) are taught to hate lubavitch and change all their minhagim.

and back to the point of R' Mottels book - the reason he wrote it at all was bc the rebbe encouraged older chassidim to write their histories. and when he wrote about his mesiras nefesh and being in jail he wrote it was bc he was sent by the previous rebbe and bc he was working under the directive of the p. rebbe. otherwise he may have lived a private lifestyle like so many others and not had to deal with the kgb and everything else. so deleting out all references to chabad is a major part of his book not just stam some details.

shalhevet

Mon, Mar 26 2007, 12:18 pm

Motek wrote:

Imaonwheels wrote:

You just proved my point. Now we don't follow Rav Ovadia, nor do we hold by this psak at all, but why should I have anything against him saying his psak or by those who have him as his rav going by it? L'hefech, those who have him as their rav should be going by this, and his other, piskei halachos. But when it comes to Chabad someone says that Rav Ovadia stating that his psak is contrary to Chabad mivtzaim, is posul in their eyes. For someone whose rav is Rav Ovadia it IS a bracha l'vatala.

sarahd

Mon, Mar 26 2007, 4:25 pm

GR wrote:

Then either you wrote the wrong place or I'm way out of it, because afaik there's only one Shliach in the place you mentioned and the story is completely different.

I would be very happy to hear the other version of the story, since I was really very upset with the story I heard.

Imaonwheels

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 5:19 am

shalhevet wrote:

Motek wrote:

Imaonwheels wrote:

No I did not 'prove your point'. My sil was raised Yemenite by his family. He has, B"H, not only his father, but both GFs, his maternal GGF and GGGF. His GFs life story was published by the organization that is recording the experiences of Yemenites before and after their transfer to Israel. He is very boki in the major Yemenite sefarim and the minhagim of the Shaarabim (his tribe) and has knowledge also of the Biladi and Chabani. Mesoret since the time of the BM is just thrown away.

I heard the phrase normative Ashkenazi minhag. There is no such thing if you are using Ashkenazi in the wider sense of all European Jewery. There is a difference between countries, differing shitos, etc. A yekke has different minhagim than Litvishe, who have differing minhagim from Chassidim. Rusian, Polish and Hungarian chassidim have differing minhagim. The extreme pressure in Israel to push all of the Israeli eidot hamizrach under R' Ovadia is done by coercion in that nearly every Sefardi Talmud Torah is funded by Shas. The other Shas rabbonim have already made public there displeasure. My sil went to a Shas TT and they only recommended yeshivos where the boys are Sefardim and all of the rabbonim are Ashkenazi.

And of course my dil was told to learn TM from an Ashkenazi teacher because the Sefardi rabbonim 'have made mistakes'. I was told the same about the Baal HaTanya, that it is a shita toah.

If someone follows R' Ovadia as their posek they should listen to everything he says. The sefardi nonfrum and traditional public for the most part have tremendous respect for rabbonim. R' Ovadia is used by the party often as a salesman. To get hysterical because women who don't makpid on kashrut and tznius and may even have stopped TM may lighti candles w/a bracha is hypocritical. R' Ovadia and Shas have done much to return the eidot hamizrach back to Torah. However, they have brought with them an Ashkenazi machlochet that is not really theirs because of their experiences in Ashkenazi yeshivot. I do not blame them, but rather those who taught them sinas Israel.

Imaonwheels

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 5:22 am

BTW, this thread should not be negative energy lishma. Lets get the chometz into the light only to do birur. We can look at ourselves and think each time we post whether we are denigrating someone else because we don't think. We can look at the environment we and our children are in.

shalhevet

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 7:27 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

I heard the phrase normative Ashkenazi minhag. There is no such thing if you are using Ashkenazi in the wider sense of all European Jewery. There is a difference between countries, differing shitos, etc. A yekke has different minhagim than Litvishe, who have differing minhagim from Chassidim. Rusian, Polish and Hungarian chassidim have differing minhagim.

That's true about a lot of details (eg in the davenning, all kinds of foods people do/don't eat on Pesach) but still the general minhagim are similar.

Quote:

To get hysterical because women who don't makpid on kashrut and tznius and may even have stopped TM may lighti candles w/a bracha is hypocritical.

I disagree with you on this point. A person will have to give a din v'cheshbon on every aveira ch"v they have done. In Torah Judaism we do not hold that the 'ends justify the means'. If for these people their rov has paskened that it is a bracha l'vatala, then that is still an aveira for them even if they eat treif and dress with pritzus. And the person who encouraged them and knew that they pasken differently will be liable. Not only that, maybe they decided to take something on and decided that it would be to get their daughter to light candles, when otherwise they might have decided on something they have a chiyuv to do.

The basic problem here is that of some groups not getting organized to provide chinuch, tzedoko, institutions for their own eida. They rely on others, and others think that gives them the right to dictate what minhagim etc their 'guests' should follow. It is basically a colonial mentality of 'we know what is best for you'. It was/is followed by the Ashkenazim towards the Sephardim (both in the secular and religious camps) and now by Shas towards other Sephardim. And, yes, also by Lub towards other Jews.

Imaonwheels

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 1:32 pm

Three points:

1. R' Ovadia is NOT the rav of these frei and traditional women. They simply respect rabbonim. If the Baba Baruch said something else they would pick what they think is right. Frum people have a posek they ask. These people see a rav as someone they respect. If he came on tv the next day telling them to cover their hair they wouldn't listen for the most part. It becomes another scene in the Ashkenazim-are-out-to-get-us syndrome. R' Ovadia is their rav if they have made him so. Not if the Ashkenazi charedi rabbonim have made him so. You have to live among Sefrdim to understand.

2. Minhagim between different Ashkenazi groups are very different if people keep them. If all the girls learn in one school and parents are not caring enough to make sure the yeshiva is consistant w/the home then everything gets homogenized. It was like the BBC making announcers from Ireland and Scotland sound as if the mere born in London. Keeping their own minhag falls 100% on the family. I know plenty of people who hold a different derech than there family because the family chose the yeshiva for other reasons than community and most men take on the minhag of their rabbonim.

3. This is not America, schooling is never 100% private and eidot cannot just make their own school. Chabad is the only frum school system that does not have a political party to obtain its funds. Mori Yechiyeh in Shaariya can choose to take boys and teach them derech Teiman but if his students are not registered somewhere he will soon be hungry and his little school will not be able to have heat or even adequate supplies. Forget parnassa for the mori. The protection of a political party is considered essential by most for funding and protection from those who don't appreciate that such a lg percentage of Israel's children learn in charedi schools.

Motek

Thu, Mar 29 2007, 3:05 pm

this is a partial list of those rabbinic families whose daughters have verified that it was their custom for even young girls to light candles (alphabetical order):

Alter (Ger)
Friedman (Sadugera-Ruzhin)
Hager (Vizhnitz)
Halberstam (Tzanz-Bobov)
Heschel (Kupishnitz-Apter)
Karelitz (Kolel Chazon Ish)
Rokeach (Belz)
Schneerson (Lubavitch)
Shapiro (Volozhin)
Soloveitchik (Brisk)
Sonenfeld (Yerushalayim)
Twersky (Chernoble)
Weinberg (Slonim)

betshy

Tue, Apr 10 2007, 5:58 am

hi everyone, welcome back to the world of ordinary chometz and hopefully the spiritual effects of the matzos will be felt for a while....
Let's remember we are Jews first and we all eat matzot on pessach, then we are minhagim oriented and each one to his own, with respect for everyone elses.
Although I usually agree with Shalhevet's hashkafot and clear judgement, this time I feel it's important to make some corrections. The original poster was dismayed at the chabad mikveh attentand in Thailand, and I'm dan l'kaf z'chut that she was probably not the shlicha, but an inspired woman (probably BT) who really felt that the chabad custom would have some spiritual benefit for those who practice it--so with all good temimus'dike intention she did what most of us agree was not to be done. Good intentions are not good deeds.
However, when it comes to the work of chabad shluchim to diseminate the name of Hashem and His teachings to the world at large--when most of these Jews have no idea of custom, it is certainly correct to teach them the chabad custom. shalhevet, you certainly know the dictum of "one who teaches someone torah is as if they gave birth to them."
As a matter of fact, I know very many BT's trained by Ohr Someyach or Aish Hatorah who took on Litvishe minhagim, simply because those institutions are lead chiefly by Litvishe rabbanim--and those who subsequently found their niche in chassidic enclaves--only later switched to the chassidic minhagim, especially if they discovered that they were descendant of chassidic jews. So why shouldn't the chabad shlichim teach their flock their customs?
Let's remember that the Mishna Berura brings/quotes the Shulchan Aruch Harav?( I think that's what the Baal Hatanya's shulchan aruch is called) and upto the last 2-3 decades there was no anti-chabad feelings. On the contrary anyone familiar with Jerusalem of Old will know that the old-time chabadtzker are exactly the same as their Prushim or Chassidim counterparts without any distinction.
When chabad teaches Jews about Judaism and many start taking on mitzvos--they must be praised and giver Yasher Koach, because if they wouldn't be doing it, we would have to do it.

gryp

Thu, Apr 12 2007, 7:16 pm

Nice post, Betshy. I just wanted to clarify some things.

I don't know about the Mishna B'rurah quoting the Shulchan Aruch HaRav since I've never learned it inside but I can take your word for it if you've seen it there. But you should know that some parts of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav were lost, and for those halachos we go by the Misna B'rurah.

Quote:

and upto the last 2-3 decades there was no anti-chabad feelings.

I am stunned that you write this in this very thread entitled "Historical Revisionism at Chabad's Expense." I don't know who revised history to you but I guess you don't know the story of the Alter Rebbe in prison under a heavy death sentence as a result of slandering done by fellow Jews to the government. Or the stories of the public debates between Chassidim and the opponents to Chassidus which resulted in whole cities becoming Chassidim. Or the stories about young people who were beaten to or near death for becoming Chassidim.

faigie

Thu, Apr 12 2007, 7:49 pm

I think that poor lady who is out in yehupitzville !!!!!thailand!!!!! deserves a break. maybe 99% of the mikvah customers are people who pretty much never use a mikvah. who knows. just the fact that shes out in that wasteland,helping yidden who show up is mindblowing.
least for me it is.

gryp

Thu, Apr 12 2007, 8:24 pm

Tzena, what was the opposition to the Frierdiker Rebbe? When he visited Eretz Yisroel in 1929 huge crowds of people went out to greet him, and banners were placed all over announcing his arrival.

Ruchel

Mon, Jul 23 2007, 8:54 pm

Motek wrote:

Was it family minhag or something that was also done in their community?

Motek

Wed, Aug 08 2007, 8:51 pm

Sounds like a family custom, ruchel.

Here's another example in which the Lubavitcher Rebbe said not to change people's customs:

A question arose regarding teaching Yemenite children, for the Chabad teachers used the Ashkenazic-Russian pronunciation while the Yemenites wanted their children to learn in their own traditional pronunciation. R’ Avrohom Lieder wrote to the Rebbe and received this reply:

Since our brethren the Sefardim are accustomed to this pronunciation for generations, one generation after another, there is no need to change it for they have a family custom. And certainly the reviewing of Chassidus with the Sefardic pronunciation which they cling to because they learned it from their fathers and their fathers’ fathers, people who sacrificed for G-d, will cause pleasure up Above and will have an effect down below (Igros Kodesh, vol. 10, letter #969).

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