Message from Leah Vincent to the frum community

happybeingamom

Thu, May 22 2014, 10:17 am

sequoia wrote:

Well, if you want people to respect your choices (and you do -- you want them to provide kosher food for you when necessary, not schedule events on shabbos, dress tzniusly in your home even if tznius is not on their radar), then you have to respect theirs.

Frankly, I don't see what's so "sinful" about Leah's life. What is she, kidnapping orphans to sell or something?

My atheist friends do not judge me for being religious -- they think the whole thing's a bit silly and unnecessary, but they respect my choice. Why wouldn't I give them the same courtesy back?

When one does an avera they are sinning, now we are all not perfectly observant Jews but that is our goal. I find it very sad when one does not have that goal.

I can respect someones choice even though I think it is horrible and will harm them (for example a person who smokes).

tigerwife

Thu, May 22 2014, 10:51 am

sequoia wrote:

This is all very confusing for me. I can understand if she were living a dangerous or antisocial lifestyle (drugs, crime, promiscuity), you might say "I told you so!" But if someone is a normal, civilized, educated, law-abiding woman, wife, and mother, what's there to say?

I didn't read her book but I believe the reason people don't take her seriously is because she is (was?) living a promiscuous life. (Apologies if I'm wrong, that was the impression I got from skimming her book thread). I don't think she'd get the same reactions if she wrote about her respectable and accomplished secular life.

marina

Thu, May 22 2014, 11:48 am

leah233 wrote:

I don't get the question or the analogy so the answer once again is NO.

There are many people who would do all sorts of evil things and hold back because of societal consequences.I don't mean this from a religious perspective and I'm not referring to religious behavior.(e.g. I've heard non-Jewish coworkers say the only thing that prevents them from certain crimes is not the fear of getting arrested per se but rather the problems career wise getting arrested will cause them) Anyone coming to me asking to change those factors will also be told NO!

your comment made it sound like everyone should stay in your jail and if they want to leave, mwahahahaha, you're not going to let them out easy.

More analogous, I guess, to people who want to leave a country, but you plan to retain the obstacles in their way.

marina

Thu, May 22 2014, 11:50 am

happybeingamom wrote:

I don't get it. How do you respect someone's choice if you find it horrible?

Look happybeingamom, I think you are a horrible person. But no offense, I really respect you. Does that make any sense?

Just be honest. You look down on secular people and you pity them. You certainly don't respect them or their choices.

marina

Thu, May 22 2014, 11:54 am

tigerwife wrote:

She is well-respected in many circles. Or at least, those circles that don't throw away a person's whole perspective because she slept around for a few years.

happybeingamom

Thu, May 22 2014, 12:25 pm

marina wrote:

I think the choice can be horrible but I can still respect them.

Here is an example

Lets say I am a Republican and I think the values of the Democratic party are horrible, I can still respect someone who is a democrat even if think some of their views are horrible. (disclaimer I don't belong to either of those parties this is just an example so all democrats please do not get upset.)

In your example you wrote I think I am a horrible person, your statement is judging me entirely. There is a big difference thinking a choice someone makes is horrible as opposed to thinking the person in their entirety is horrible.

Your statement that I look down on secular people and pity them is is incorrect. People make hundreds of choices with their life some of the choices I will respect and some I won't. In my view people aren't black and white.

marina

Thu, May 22 2014, 12:29 pm

happybeingamom wrote:

Nope. You can disagree with someone's views or political affiliation and still respect them. You can't consider someone's choices "horrible" and still respect them. What's there to respect?

I think, for example, that the mom beating on her child in Walmart is making a horrible choice... but I still respect that choice? What? No I don't.

happybeingamom

Thu, May 22 2014, 12:51 pm

marina wrote:

You are not understanding using, a smoker as an example. It is legal to smoke in the USA.

John Doe smokes, I don't respect his choice to smoke but I respect that he has the right to make that choice. John Doe is an excellent husband, father, helps the poor and many other thinks those choices I respect.

Most people make good choices and bad choices I respect the good choices they make and don't respect the bad choices. If their bad choice are legal I respect that they have the right to make it and I should not interfere. Therefore I don't email John Doe everyday about all the bad things that happen when one smokes.

Now there are people who are murders, abusers and that bad choice is so harmful to others there is no room for respect because of the harm they do.

amother

Thu, May 22 2014, 3:29 pm

marina wrote:

She is well-respected in many circles. Or at least, those circles that don't throw away a person's whole perspective because she slept around for a few years.

Out of curiosity, which circles?

I am interested in hearing more about her life. I thought that the book was not very fleshed out, and the reader lost out. I would have liked to hear more about how she got from Point A to Point B, not just about her affairs, although I understand that might not be considered as sensational.

From an author who has a supposed depth, I was disappointed, frankly.

marina

Thu, May 22 2014, 4:22 pm

happybeingamom wrote:

Ok, so you don't actually mean "respect"- you mean "tolerate." I tolerate your smoking even though I find it abhorrent. I tolerate it because it's not illegal ( like murderers and abusers) and so that means it is your choice and I shouldn't interfere.

You are just using the wrong word.

marina

Thu, May 22 2014, 4:24 pm

amother wrote:

She's well respected in the MO and OTD communities. Various chareidi people also value her opinions.

I was not thrilled with the book either and I see the room for criticism there. I think I just know more of her and have read more of her writing from facebook and so on.

amother

Thu, May 22 2014, 4:55 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

So you don't think that going from being thrown out of your family, being virtually homeless, suicidal and living a degenerate lifestyle (based on her own description) to going to college, graduate school at Harvard, starting a family and being a devoted mother and wife qualifies as "persevering and becoming stronger"?

Homeless? As far as I understood, she was given an apartment and a job so how could she have been homeless? Exaggerating her story will not help her (or your) case.

Also, at one point, she wrote in her book that she got a raise and was making $25,000 a year. That is a very respectable amount especially for a single person but it left me wondering what she was making before the raise since its not very plausible to go from say 13,00 (or whatever minimum wage adds up to) to 25,00 with just one raise.

Furthermore, she claimed that she did not have time for a social life since she was too busy with work and school. Yet she had no problem having affairs with guys and then "becoming a harlot"? Or having a full blown affair with the professor? She could have used the time to make new friends at Brooklyn College, especially some of the yeshivishe girls that go there. Or she could have gone to Hillel and asked for assistance from them.

I dont know, but perhaps she is not the right person for this role since I question everything she writes so its hard to take her seriously.

amother

Thu, May 22 2014, 5:00 pm

marina wrote:

She's well respected in the MO and OTD communities. Various chareidi people also value her opinion.

Is she really respected or do certain people (who are currently in the spotlight as well) just defend her regardless of what anyone else says? Because I've heard that a lot of OTD people are not happy with her but they get shushed up for some reason. I've heard that they say that Leah is a fraud, that she takes stories from other people and pretends that its her own. I've also heard that she writes stories about chasidishe people even though she herself was never chasidish and doesnt begin to understand what it means to be chasidish.

But it's seems as if Leah is a God to some of these OTD individuals which makes me wonder why anyone should take them seriously.

Maya

Thu, May 22 2014, 5:29 pm

amother wrote:

Because of course, all these things that you "heard" must be true. Rolling Eyes

We all choose whom to believe and whom to disbelieve, and it's usually the ones who make us more comfortable in our own opinions.

amother

Thu, May 22 2014, 5:31 pm

Maya wrote:

Because of course, all these things that you "heard" must be true. Rolling Eyes

We all choose whom to believe and whom to disbelieve, and it's usually the ones who make us more comfortable in our own opinions.

Nope, they dont have to be true. Except that I heard it directly from OTD people who I actually respect and trust so I choose to believe them when they say such things.

StripedFlower

Thu, May 22 2014, 6:46 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

No one is trying to caricature those who leave.

what?

And I don't think she is writing this about her own life. I think she is writing this on behalf of many other people, who are most certainly labeled and dumped in an OTD box regardless of their personal life story.

What's wrong with that? OTD is OTD regardless of the reason. Just like dead is dead.

StripedFlower

Thu, May 22 2014, 6:49 pm

marina wrote:

Everyone knows that some frum people need to paint those who leave as emotionally unstable because otherwise, those frum people could not justify remaining religious themselves.

After all, if someone can leave Judaism and still be a stable and happy person, why should I stay? So, of course, I need to convince myself that everyone who leaves is crazy.

What a weird thing to say.

People stay frum because that's what being a yid is all about. Not because you can't be happy and stable living a secular life. Indeed, living a frum life is often much harder.

We are told that we shouldn't say we don't eat chazir because it's a disgusting animal that lives in mud and eats in own faeces, we don't eat chazir because Hashem forbade it.

StripedFlower

Thu, May 22 2014, 7:00 pm

Frumdoc wrote:

Whereas the people I know are too intellectually honest to accept the compromises in the orthodox systems they lived in, the homophobia, the issues about women and other fundamentals that were inconsistent with their principles.

So their principles were not in tune with Torah and Yiddishkeit.

StripedFlower

Thu, May 22 2014, 7:04 pm

sequoia wrote:

Frankly, I don't see what's so "sinful" about Leah's life. What is she, kidnapping orphans to sell or something?

Being secular, by definition, means:

1- Eating treif.
2- Not keeping taharas hamishpacha.
3- Being mechallel shabbos.

All of which are huge sins.

BlueRose52

Thu, May 22 2014, 9:12 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

amother wrote:

Homeless? As far as I understood, she was given an apartment and a job so how could she have been homeless? Exaggerating her story will not help her (or your) case.

I absolutely agree that exaggerating her story doesn't help her case. In fact, it's my number one complaint against any writer, and her too, when she does it. But I'm not exaggerating. You're misreading. I wrote virtually homeless. In the sense that she didn't have a home since her family threw her out of her home. Yes, she had a place to stay, but she was a naive kid on her own in a city where she knew no one. That is what I meant by virtually homeless, not literally homeless. This is aside from the fact that what you mention occurred at the very beginning of her journey; much more happened over the ensuing years and there were indeed points where she was broke and IIRC, had to rely on the kindness of friends.

(Also, on this Reddit thread, she refers to herself as, at one time, being homeless, so maybe indeed she actually was literally homeless too.)