Message from Leah Vincent to the frum community

DrMom

Fri, May 23 2014, 1:13 am

amother wrote:

I wouldn't listen to anything she has to say because of her choice of life as of now. Many people suffer in life ..in childhood ... those who persevere and became stronger people are the ones we should learn from. Running away and leaving the torah way of life is nothing to be proud of.

Perhaps she went through difficulties or her parents made mistakes but really, who's to say that as a parent she wont make mistakes and cause her own children to one day go against everything she believes in?

Listening to someone who ran away is not something I would do or recommend.

Since you chose post as amother, I don't know anything about your life choices, so I wouldn't listen to anything you have to say.

And how exactly does your post fit the guidelines for anonymous posting?

marina

Fri, May 23 2014, 2:10 am

amother wrote:

Is she really respected or do certain people (who are currently in the spotlight as well) just defend her regardless of what anyone else says? Because I've heard that a lot of OTD people are not happy with her but they get shushed up for some reason. I've heard that they say that Leah is a fraud, that she takes stories from other people and pretends that its her own. I've also heard that she writes stories about chasidishe people even though she herself was never chasidish and doesnt begin to understand what it means to be chasidish.

But it's seems as if Leah is a God to some of these OTD individuals which makes me wonder why anyone should take them seriously.

I'd like to hear more about this. I must be out of the loop. Which OTD people are you friends with and what are they saying? Feel free to message me about this.

marina

Fri, May 23 2014, 2:11 am

StripedFlower wrote:

What's wrong with that? OTD is OTD regardless of the reason. Just like dead is dead.

Do you like it when secular people dump you into a general Ultra-Orthodox category, with all the crazies and violent nuts? After all, frum is frum. Just like dead is dead.

marina

Fri, May 23 2014, 2:12 am

StripedFlower wrote:

What a weird thing to say.

People stay frum because that's what being a yid is all about. Not because you can't be happy and stable living a secular life. Indeed, living a frum life is often much harder.

We are told that we shouldn't say we don't eat chazir because it's a disgusting animal that lives in mud and eats in own faeces, we don't eat chazir because Hashem forbade it.

My comment was not directed at you, I don't think. I was responding to this:

Quote:

Everyone knows that mostly people that leave are emotionally unstable so she's not going to admit so she's trying to use different types of explanations

marina

Fri, May 23 2014, 2:20 am

StripedFlower wrote:

Being secular, by definition, means:

1- Eating treif.
2- Not keeping taharas hamishpacha.
3- Being mechallel shabbos.

All of which are huge sins.

so is: speaking LH and embarassing people and stealing from the government and cheating on taxes and getting paid under the table and creating a chillul hashem and perpetuating a cycle of poverty and pretending you are not married so you can get more benefits and ignoring molesters and child abusers and fundraising for criminals that belong in jail and beating your wife and on and on and on...

But those people are still frum, right? They're not secular in your eyes, I don't think. I guess those are not huge sins?

amother

Fri, May 23 2014, 11:57 am

marina wrote:

I'd like to hear more about this. I must be out of the loop. Which OTD people are you friends with and what are they saying? Feel free to message me about this.

I will not name my sources publicly or in private for that matter. However, I will say that when Leah wrote this article, some members of the otd community objected because they felt that she (Leah) had used Deb Tambor to promote her own story. Deb Tambor was a chasidishe woman who had a very different upbringing than Leah and struggled with very different issues than Leah had. Yet Leah had no problem putting the two of them in the same article. Which basically means that when it suited Leah (or when she was promoting her book) then all otd people are the same but now Leah wants us to view them differently? Seems hypocritical to me.

PinkFridge

Fri, May 23 2014, 12:12 pm

marina wrote:

She is well-respected in many circles. Or at least, those circles that don't throw away a person's whole perspective because she slept around for a few years.

I don't throw away her perspective. I feel very sad at the pain that drove her to that, though.

ETA: and in our - and I'm including us all - we generally call that self-destructive behavior.

And I read the Time link. I don't have the time or kochos now to study the article and parse it as well as some of our lawyer types here will, but I will say this: despite her saying that "there's much to respect and adore in ultra-Orthodoxy" or whatever, the casual reader (1) may still be left with the feeling that in the Ultra-Orthodox world (2) everything (3) that Leah Vincent describes is the norm and systemic, I.e living this lifestyle so easily leads to all this. (4)

(1) Oh. No problem. This is Time, not Newsweek. Surely all the readers are educated and appreciate nuance. Never mind.

(2) And make no mistake. A LOT of us here will be lumped into the Ultra-Orthodox rubric in the eyes of many.

(3) If not more.

(4) Sorry for the footnotes. I just finished a Spellman book not long ago.*

*Hm, an Ultra-Orthodox woman who reads Lisa Lutz. Where does that belong in the box so neatly described...can't compute...my head's gonna explode....

Last edited by PinkFridge on Fri, May 23 2014, 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Fri, May 23 2014, 2:14 pm

amother wrote:

Deb Tambor is a one-line in that article. I think she used her as an example, not to promote her story.

Also I think it is very normal to take a tragedy like Deb Tambor and try and relate it to your personal experience. I think whenever we hear about any tragedy, in any community, we think about ourselves and our families and our own experiences.

I don't think this article shows what you think it shows.

amother

Fri, May 23 2014, 2:49 pm

marina wrote:

My point was that there were people in the otd community who objected to Leah using Deb Tambor as an example as you call it. But they were shushed by the rest of the otd gang. So who should I listen to and/or believe, Leah or her adversaries within her own community?

amother

Fri, May 23 2014, 3:11 pm

I also want to add that some otd people dont want Leah talking or writing about the chasidishe communities as she tends to do (which she did in that article under the umbrella term Ultra-Orthodox) since Leah did not grow up chasidish and never faced the problems some chasidishe girls face. For example, the Satmar girls have to get their GED to go to college something that Leah never had to do (she got a presidential scholarship from Brooklyn College with her Yeshivishe high school transcripts.) She also learned chumash and Rashi in school which some chasidishe/satmar girls dont learn. Some of them even said that Leah was never in an arranged marriage, did not have children before she was ready, and never had to deal with losing her kids to the orthodox community so she has no business advocating for the chasidishe otd people.
Should we not listen to what these individuals have to say because Leah is "respected" by some people? Doesn't that go against what she originally said (in this op) that otd people want to be seen as individuals and not as a group?

BlueRose52

Fri, May 23 2014, 5:33 pm

Yes, some people in the OTD community are not fans of Leah, and she gets criticism from them. I know this for a fact too. But so what? They aren't entirely invalidating her story or calling her a liar. They just take issue with some of what she does, how she presents herself, and how she goes about promoting her causes (not the cause itself). It's not like the Deborah Feldman situation where (IIRC) people were accusing her of making stuff up that didn't in any way happen. If anything, that's a good thing. A community where people feel free to criticize the more prominent members is a sign of a normal, healthy community. Another example of this is the recent "summit" between some rabbonim and members of the OTD community (Leah included), and it had plenty of criticism from the OTD community.

By the way, do you realize the double-standard here? If everyone were to worship her, or be in total agreement about stuff, then they'd have no credibility and be criticized for being mindless zombies who are just as closed-minded as the people they accuse of being so. But if they actually have dissent in their ranks, then they have no credibility because no one agrees on anything!

StripedFlower

Sun, May 25 2014, 6:09 am

marina wrote:

People sin all the time, it's called a yetzer hora. But there are sins and there are sins.

Sinning in the ways I mentioned, as a matter of course, renders one secular.

You can't spin your way out of it, Marina.

marina

Sun, May 25 2014, 1:13 pm

amother wrote:

Everyone can read her book, read the criticisms ( like I said, there's plenty of room for valid criticims) and decide for themselves. I still don't understand what your comments have to do with the original post. Do you disagree that otd people are diverse and should not be lumped into a box? Or do you discount that idea simply because you criticize Leah's book?

sequoia

Sun, May 25 2014, 1:15 pm

StripedFlower wrote:

So it's BETTER to rape children than to eat treif. Got it, thanks for clarifying.

marina

Sun, May 25 2014, 1:17 pm

StripedFlower wrote:

Yeah, secular. I'd take secular any day than be so-called "frum" and shelter molesters or create a huge chillul hashem through the way I live my life.

But if you think our deity cares more about you not brushing your hair on shabbos than people raising funds to keep rapists out of jail, I guess you are entitled to your views. Just admit that this is what you are saying. Hashem cares more about whether I have separate milchig and fleishig plates than He does about whether I beat my wife. Because violating the first one makes you frei and violating the second one is just your yetzer harah and everyone has one.

After all, like you said, there are sins and there are SINS.

ValleyMom

Sun, May 25 2014, 1:22 pm

For someone that left orthodox Judaism on her own volition WHY does she keep coming back?

Do people contact her for updates?

Why does she insist on giving the orthodox community updates on her current life?

Frankly I believe the typical orthodox woman is quite busy running a household, working full time and dealing with daily living.

Why does she feel compelled to maintain contact?

Very odd.

imokay

Sun, May 25 2014, 1:42 pm

marina wrote:

I can't believe anyone wud really think that way....and I think u know that... But I think there is a dif between proudly living an openly 'secular' lifestyle- and occasionally slipping up w the mitzvot but being embarrassed about it.... One is a purposeful decision and one is a mistake to be worked on

Frumdoc

Sun, May 25 2014, 3:33 pm

Secularism is defined by what you believe, not what you keep.

It is not the specific mitzvot one does or does not do that define who you are, it is your stated belief system. The mitzvot one keeps usually follow along with that, although I know secular women who keep a kosher home for various reasons.

Otherwise one may as well put people in a box defined by what hat they wear, oh, oops, forgot we do that too Rolling Eyes

Frumdoc

Sun, May 25 2014, 3:36 pm

ValleyMom wrote:

I would think it is because she sees it as her mission to make life easier and less painful for those others who leave, and aid understanding between those who leave orthodoxy and their still frum families.

How is this anything but a good thing, to try to make shalom between jews?