Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Household Management -> Finances
Living in Israel
  Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 3:53 am
Quote:
It has been asked why someone should have anything against people living an expensive lifestyle if they can afford it?

Firstly, if they really cared about learning, they would realise that they can live on half that amount and then they could learn for four years instead of two.


You misunderstand. It's not that the couple has to leave EY after two years because there's no more support. It's that they never intended to stay in kollel longer; in fact, the husband is not striving to become the next gadol hador. They're just fitting the mold of "the best way for a couple to begin married life is for the dh to learn in kollel, even if just for a year or two." And luckily they (or their parents, of course) have the means to be able to do this in Israel. After their two-year honeymoon, they return to the US and begin "real" life - dh goes into dad's or shver's business or goes to college and starts a career. They're not looking to spend years in kollel.

You might be right that this man will never become a velt's talmid chacham living like this, but who says that's what he's aiming for?

(BTW, all the couples I know who have done this come from extremely wealthy families that do not have a problem supporting this lifestyle.)
Back to top

sarahd




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 3:58 am
MosheDovid'sMom wrote:
Quote:
Please be careful when you make these kinds of statements, lest they not offend someone who BH has the means to treat themselves once in a while to something special.

when we say luxury, we are talking ppl that eat ckn/meat 3 times a week for dinner, take taxis to the dr, geula and anywhere else they have to go, easily shop at more expensive stores without making an effort to go somewhere cheaper, cleaning help- and all this on s/o else's cheshbon, s/o else paying.

to previous amother: if you work hard and decide to spend your $$ on xyz, you are entitled. these ppl are choosing to spend other ppl's hard earned money on xyz, w/o even the effort of budget.


You too misunderstand. These kids' parents WANT them to live this way. They don't want their children to have to scrimp and save and do without what the parents consider normal necessities of life. They want them living in the heart of J-lem and not in Netivot, and they're willing to pay for it.

Certainly, young couples from families that can't really afford it have the achrayus to grow up, realize this and adjust their lifestyles accordingly. If they can't or don't, that's a failure in their chinuch, IMHO.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 4:07 am
MosheDovid'sMom: There are all sorts of random jobs that don't require Hebrew. But you need the time and patience to look for them: freelance writing/editing (but you need to to be skilled in this and preferably have experience), secretarial positions (some only require English), Kiruv/Chinuch positions especially for groups coming from the US during breaks, etc. While I do have pretty decent Hebrew, I was hired for an administrative/writing job that did not require ANY Hebrew...and I get paid 5750 NIS! Besides Janglo and Tanglo, check out marksman.co.il and http://www.ioh.co.il/Content/F.....p?f=3 (this page is in Dutch, but the job descritpions are in English). Like I said, it does take time to find these jobs, but they do exist.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 4:44 am
Just for the record the POV of the mother complaining that her married childrent are aking for more money was from someone whose son and daughter in law are both working. She was not supporting them in kollel. Usually when someone is working they have an even higher standard. That couple probably had a really high mortgage and other living expenses. So it is not such a good example, it was not a kollel couple.
Back to top

shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 10:43 am
amother wrote:


Granted, we are not the typical kollel couple that you are talking about. My DH is Israeli and we live here permanantely. He learns at an out-of-the-way kollel, not the one or two you say ALL feel that they MUST study at. We support ourselves, without any help from our parents.

You say that a life of luxury and Torah do not go hand in hand. That's a very general statement, and obviously there are so many ways to define "luxury," but I'm suprised by how you define it. I just want to point out that if a couple has the financial means (like we do, BH) to indulge once in a while, it's ok. Just bc we go out to a restaurant once a month, doesn't mean DH does not take his learning very seriously. Just because I buy a more expensive brand of ketchup doesn't mean I don't take my yiddishkeit and living in EY seriously.

Please be careful when you make these kinds of statements, lest they not offend someone who BH has the means to treat themselves once in a while to something special.


amother, I really didn't mean you. I have no problem whatsoever with couples who are self supporting living on a higher standard of living. My whole taina is with those who are taking money from their parents to live a luxurious lifestyle, for the reasons I mentioned.

This was even my point - that you can live here, learn in a different kolel, the wife can work and you can manage fine without sponging huge amounts off parents in the name of 'Torah'.
Back to top

suomynona




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 11:27 am
I mentioned this discussion to my husband and he had a few points to add -

1) similar to what I said, most of the Americans who move here for 2 years after marriage come to e"y for the sole reason of continuing to go to Rav X's shiur (in the Mir, let's say) for 2 more years - the same shiur they went to when they were bachurim - before they have to go to work.

2) it would be practically impossible for one of these Americans to get accepted into a decent paying Israeli kollel.

3) he couldn't understand how Israelis dare complain about the "spoiled" Americans who supposedly pressure their parents into giving them money they can't afford. Among Israeli chareidim, it's a given that the parents will buy an apartment for the couple. Among Americans, it's not a given at all that the parents will help the couple buy a house. So even if the Israeli couple lives outside yerushayim, and even if some of the mortgage is left up to the couple to pay, the sum total that the Israeli parents are dishing out is still more money than America parents give to support their children for a few years. And relatively speaking to their income, the Israeli parents are giving much more that they don't have. Since most Israeli chareidim don't have regular well-paying jobs, and most Americans do, even if they are not wealthy.

And Shalhevet, I will add that it's almost impossible for an American women to find a job here that will cover even a fraction of living expenses, at any standard.
Back to top

Health is a Virture




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 11:53 am
suoy, I second what you wrote!!

And to reiterate what I wrote earlier, just because many of us don't relate to this type of couple, does not mean that it is bad. IN fact, for them, this is mesiras nefesh!! Plus, most of them are going back and going to earn a whole lot more than you can ever imagine what can make. And, then they will support kollelS. These two years are showing the couple that learning is really their priority, but that because of the way they were raised, money will come second.

I think instead of judging people different from us, we should try to understand (on some level) and try to learn from them too.
Back to top

proudima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 11:57 am
1) VVVV comutable to Y-m Maale Adumim, and Kochav Yaakov/Tel Zion


2) I agree with a lot of what Shalhevet had to say

3) The OP also said that she wants trips to Europe 1/month???? or did I make a mistake?

4) Someone mentioned cleaning 4-6 hrs a week! For a 2 bdrm apt, with no kids, and the wife not working? HEEEEELLLLLOOOOOO? If someone really wants it, they'll cut out the cleaning, and if they REALLLLLLLLYYYY want it, they'll clean for others

Listen, I can openly say that I can't relate. I work over 40 hrs a week, commute from Maale Adumim to Hadasa Ein Karem every day, have b"H a gorgeous healthy daughter, have no house help (tho DH really pulls his weight).

Not working sounds like dream. Not working, having a cleaner, travelling once a month to Europe, eating out at a nice restaurant 2/month sounds like GAN EDEN!!!!!!

We have been out to a nice restaurant twice in 4 years. We have been bake to USA once in 4 years, and not back to my native country for nearly 5 years. Not a day goes by that I don't thank Hashem. When I buy an ice cream/felafel boy do I savor it! So I can't relate.

Those that are able to GREAT! BUT DON'T FORGET YOUR BROTHERS and SISTERS living in Ir Hakodesh that don't have money even for chicken on shabbat. I recently had an eldery patient from Meah Shearim, who could only afford some canned gefilte fish, challah, and vegetable soup for shabbat. My heart broke. Don't take all that Hashem has blessed you with for granted.

ALSO, THE arnona thing - that is maybe why Jerusalem is becoming one of the poorest cities in Israel - 1/3 is Arab and doesn't pay, 1/3 Chareidi doesn't pay, 1/3 paying

If the OP has the money, great, the main reason I posted is because there are other couples who may not have as much but are still interested.

Now I must go to sleep to catch the 5:30 bus in the morning, and just when I think I am too tired to daven in the morning I will see the non-frum looking chayelet (female soldier) with a gun slung over her soldier, pull out her tehillim, and I will pull out my siddur and daven, for her and all Am Yisrael.
Back to top

shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 12:12 pm
suomynona wrote:
I mentioned this discussion to my husband and he had a few points to add -

1) similar to what I said, most of the Americans who move here for 2 years after marriage come to e"y for the sole reason of continuing to go to Rav X's shiur (in the Mir, let's say) for 2 more years - the same shiur they went to when they were bachurim - before they have to go to work.

But why? I'm telling you, I had never heard of this till it was mentioned on this thread and I am still totally confused why. Israeli kolel guys also learned in a yeshiva, yet nearly all change to a kolel after marriage. There are hundreds of kolelim all across Israel. I ask again - do they want to learn, or are they looking for Daddy to fund them a holiday for two years?

Quote:

2) it would be practically impossible for one of these Americans to get accepted into a decent paying Israeli kollel.

Why does he think this? My dh's rosh kolel will accept anyone who is serious about his learning for a 3 month trial, during which he makes sure they are indeed serious. Maybe just they are all trying for the same 3 kolelim? Could you explain? I just don't get it.

Quote:

3) he couldn't understand how Israelis dare complain about the "spoiled" Americans who supposedly pressure their parents into giving them money they can't afford. Among Israeli chareidim, it's a given that the parents will buy an apartment for the couple. Among Americans, it's not a given at all that the parents will help the couple buy a house. So even if the Israeli couple lives outside yerushayim, and even if some of the mortgage is left up to the couple to pay, the sum total that the Israeli parents are dishing out is still more money than America parents give to support their children for a few years. And relatively speaking to their income, the Israeli parents are giving much more that they don't have. Since most Israeli chareidim don't have regular well-paying jobs, and most Americans do, even if they are not wealthy.

The question is not the amount. The question is the purpose. Israeli parents help their children buy an apartment so they won't have to pay rent so that they will be able to learn for many years. The couple doesn't take money from their parents to eat in restaurants and ride in taxis. They live modestly from the beginning (as a generalisation - of course there are Israeli kolel couples who run after gashmius too). I have said before that I think it is great when parents support their children so that they can learn. What I don't think is great is those children having a two year luxury vacation at their parents' expense.

Quote:

And Shalhevet, I will add that it's almost impossible for an American women to find a job here that will cover even a fraction of living expenses, at any standard.

And many Israeli women don't either. So do you know what they do? They take any job they can find - a helper in a gan, a metapelet, a cashier in a supermarket - as long as it is worth it for them vis a vis childcare. They are not ashamed with what they do as long as it is enabling their husbands to learn.
Back to top

PinkandYellow




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 12:28 pm
I'm going to add this about the israeli's buying their kids apts: while I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, they are doing it so the couple can stay in kollel for many many years, not just a few. and they are not buying in the most expensive neighborhoods, more and more are going to the suburbs.

also, why wouldn't an israeli kollel accept an ame guy? I just asked dh and he said one word- garbage. unless a guy is weaker. also, there are american kollelim here as well, some geared specifically toward the weaker guy.
dh sees the mir as more of a "stepping stone" type of yeshiva, you are there for a short bit but then find more of your style and move on. he wasn't able to learn there for more than one zman. for most guys, if they are being honest with themselves, he doesn't feel its a long term place.

I know lots of ppl that live in ramat eshkol, etc. and many of them seem to think they are living here long term (or longer then just 2 yrs) and they are serious about staying in learning for longer as well. so they aren't just here for 2 years even if they are acting like it.
Back to top

suomynona




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 12:44 pm
MosheDovid'sMom wrote:
also, why wouldn't an israeli kollel accept an ame guy? I just asked dh and he said one word- garbage.

So let your husband argue it out with mine. Wink I don't know anything about men's yeshivos.
Back to top

suomynona




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 12:56 pm
I'm losing energy for this conversation. I don't know if I will post anymore unless I have new points to add.

shalhevet wrote:
suomynona wrote:
I mentioned this discussion to my husband and he had a few points to add -

1) similar to what I said, most of the Americans who move here for 2 years after marriage come to e"y for the sole reason of continuing to go to Rav X's shiur (in the Mir, let's say) for 2 more years - the same shiur they went to when they were bachurim - before they have to go to work.

But why? I'm telling you, I had never heard of this till it was mentioned on this thread and I am still totally confused why. Israeli kolel guys also learned in a yeshiva, yet nearly all change to a kolel after marriage. There are hundreds of kolelim all across Israel. I ask again - do they want to learn, or are they looking for Daddy to fund them a holiday for two years?

FYI, Mir and Brisk are kollels. They pay too. They just don't pay as much as other kollels. And what I tried to say a million times but you just don't get, is that many of the ones who don't care about learning in the Mir etc. will not come to e"y. You're taking it as a given that a couple wants to come to e"y to live. Most American kollel couples stay in America after marriage (it's different than in England). The ones who have a specific reason to come to e"y come, so it would be defeating the purpose to come and not go to the specific place they came for.


Quote:
Quote:

2) it would be practically impossible for one of these Americans to get accepted into a decent paying Israeli kollel.

Why does he think this? My dh's rosh kolel will accept anyone who is serious about his learning for a 3 month trial, during which he makes sure they are indeed serious. Maybe just they are all trying for the same 3 kolelim? Could you explain? I just don't get it.

Quote:

3) he couldn't understand how Israelis dare complain about the "spoiled" Americans who supposedly pressure their parents into giving them money they can't afford. Among Israeli chareidim, it's a given that the parents will buy an apartment for the couple. Among Americans, it's not a given at all that the parents will help the couple buy a house. So even if the Israeli couple lives outside yerushayim, and even if some of the mortgage is left up to the couple to pay, the sum total that the Israeli parents are dishing out is still more money than America parents give to support their children for a few years. And relatively speaking to their income, the Israeli parents are giving much more that they don't have. Since most Israeli chareidim don't have regular well-paying jobs, and most Americans do, even if they are not wealthy.

The question is not the amount. The question is the purpose. Israeli parents help their children buy an apartment so they won't have to pay rent so that they will be able to learn for many years. The couple doesn't take money from their parents to eat in restaurants and ride in taxis. They live modestly from the beginning (as a generalisation - of course there are Israeli kolel couples who run after gashmius too). I have said before that I think it is great when parents support their children so that they can learn. What I don't think is great is those children having a two year luxury vacation at their parents' expense.

Boy you're quick to assume that everyone is living a luxury vacation just because they're living in a more expensive area (even though their apartment might be a dump) and just because one person on this thread mentioned eating out. Sure, there are people that live a life of luxury here (usually the rich ones) but most people are not like that. To you, taking a taxi someplace might be a luxury, but to most Americans, it's still a far cry from the car they would own had they not come to e"y. As other people here have tried to say but you just dont want to hear, Americans are sacrificing a lot to come live here, even if to you, their standard of living is high. And as I've mentioned before, most Americans that stay here long term do catch on to the Israeli standard of living. Think of it as slowly getting used to a totally different lifestyle. Since the people this thread is about only stay for 2 years, they never get to the point of only taking buses, moving to other towns etc. Just moving to e"y is several steps down in gashmius from the life they would have in America.

Quote:
Quote:

And Shalhevet, I will add that it's almost impossible for an American women to find a job here that will cover even a fraction of living expenses, at any standard.

And many Israeli women don't either. So do you know what they do? They take any job they can find - a helper in a gan, a metapelet, a cashier in a supermarket - as long as it is worth it for them vis a vis childcare. They are not ashamed with what they do as long as it is enabling their husbands to learn.

My point is that they will make so little, they still have to be supported by parents.


Last edited by suomynona on Tue, May 15 2007, 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

PinkandYellow




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 1:01 pm
su, I guess I can hear what you're saying but just can't agree. actually, since we already brought husbands into the conversation, I'll add that dh always tells me- if they are happy and can afford whatever (fill in the blank), then just leave them be. And I suppose that's what we'll do bec they certainly aren't asking for my opinion!
Back to top

suomynona




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 1:10 pm
(well I'll tell you a little secret, I'm actually playing devil's advocate here. Whenever I discuss this with my husband, I take the other side. This thread was a good exercise for me to put myself in other's shoes. But I still stand by everything I say and I still think Shalhevet and others are being way too judgemental and seeing things too much in black and white)
Now I better run - gotta go cook for shavuos.
Back to top

LubavitchLeah




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 1:59 pm
This was posted

"" and just when I think I am too tired to daven in the morning I will see the non-frum looking chayelet (female soldier) with a gun slung over her soldier, pull out her tehillim, and I will pull out my siddur and daven, for her and all Am Yisrael""

That was a powerful paragraph, quite beautiful!
Back to top

amother


 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 4:16 pm
I am the original op and I said going to Europe one times in two years. Don't twist my words around. How could someone be learning if they are in Europe every month?
Back to top

MOM222




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 5:10 pm
This is what all those that don't understand need to read again.

suomynona wrote:

Boy you're quick to assume that everyone is living a luxury vacation just because they're living in a more expensive area (even though their apartment might be a dump) and just because one person on this thread mentioned eating out. Sure, there are people that live a life of luxury here (usually the rich ones) but most people are not like that. To you, taking a taxi someplace might be a luxury, but to most Americans, it's still a far cry from the car they would own had they not come to e"y. As other people here have tried to say but you just dont want to hear, Americans are sacrificing a lot to come live here, even if to you, their standard of living is high. And as I've mentioned before, most Americans that stay here long term do catch on to the Israeli standard of living. Think of it as slowly getting used to a totally different lifestyle. Since the people this thread is about only stay for 2 years, they never get to the point of only taking buses, moving to other towns etc. Just moving to e"y is several steps down in gashmius from the life they would have in America.


Many of these young couples who's intentions where to come for 2 years only fall in love with E'Y. Many stay on for many more years and lower there standard of living. Many have opened new kollels (that daddy supports) and many have returned to America with an appreciation for Torah learning and E"Y they would not have had if not for coming. they then may send there masser money to families they have personally met while living there.

To reiterate, living in E"Y for many of these young couples is lowering their standard of living. Everyone in lakewood owns a car and barely a/o in Israel does. shabbosim, having babies, Yom Tov all alone with out family in a strange place and strange language is a big sacrifice that many girls who stay in America are not doing. And for them its their sacrifice for Torah.
Back to top

Mom2Three




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 15 2007, 5:43 pm
amother wrote:
I am the original op and I said going to Europe one times in two years. Don't twist my words around. How could someone be learning if they are in Europe every month?


I think it came from this post:
amother wrote:
I am the original op and I just wanted to thank you SU for giving me the accurate assesment that I needed. Now I realize that you probably need about $2500 a month plus the extras, like coming to America and going to Europe at least once a month. Thank you for being honest.
Back to top

suomynona




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 16 2007, 3:15 am
MOM222 wrote:
shabbosim, having babies, Yom Tov all alone with out family in a strange place and strange language is a big sacrifice that many girls who stay in America are not doing. And for them its their sacrifice for Torah.

yup...yup...yup
which reminds me, I better go figure out we can invite for shavuos so we don't end up eating all the meals alone.
Back to top

PinkandYellow




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 16 2007, 4:27 am
suomynona wrote:
MOM222 wrote:
shabbosim, having babies, Yom Tov all alone with out family in a strange place and strange language is a big sacrifice that many girls who stay in America are not doing. And for them its their sacrifice for Torah.

yup...yup...yup
which reminds me, I better go figure out we can invite for shavuos so we don't end up eating all the meals alone.


sorry, I'm taking this off topic but talking about ramat eshkol and shavuos, does anyone know of a vacant apt in ramat eshkol for shavuos. I'm thinking of not staying home, and going into y-m.
Back to top
Page 6 of 7   Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Household Management -> Finances

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Comparing usa to Israel on here
by amother
40 Today at 5:43 am View last post
Gift basket that supports Israel 5 Today at 12:03 am View last post
Shana Rishona - living separately / 2 cities 16 Yesterday at 10:49 pm View last post
Going to Israel for vacation in the Summer
by amother
6 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 4:37 pm View last post
Who sells the best Sheitls in RBS Israel
by amother
12 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 2:07 pm View last post