Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Are our schools demanding too much conformity and uniformit
1  2  3  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother


 

Post Tue, May 08 2007, 9:34 am
I have heard an at risk specialist (I can't remember who) say that this is what causes our at risk problems. The schools of today are trying to produce clones of one type and conformity and uniformity to that prototype.
Back to top

shanie5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 09 2007, 12:11 am
I agree about the conformity and uniformity. it makes sense that some kids can end up at risk if they dont 'fit the mold'.
Back to top

Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 09 2007, 3:46 am
All I have to say is "Chanoch lanaar al pi darko" and many schools don't have the funds/staff/ability to do that. So it causes problems.
Back to top

Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2007, 1:30 pm
amother wrote:
I have heard an at risk specialist (I can't remember who) say that this is what causes our at risk problems. The schools of today are trying to produce clones of one type and conformity and uniformity to that prototype.


If so, let them abolish school uniforms and have a dress code instead.
Back to top

Mitzvahmom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2007, 1:32 pm
I think she means chinuch wise..

I have this problem at my kids school also, B"H this year my daughter had a teacher that accepted the fact that she just learns differently than other children. So she's doing much better this year!

They just want little robots sitting quietly in their seats, all learning at the same level etc.. Let's face it, no child is exactly alike.
Back to top

chen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2007, 2:07 pm
amother wrote:
I have heard an at risk specialist (I can't remember who) say that this is what causes our at risk problems.


A gross oversimplification, IMO, that completely ignores the contributions of so many other societal factors such as family violence, violence in the news, peer pressure, the ready availability of drugs, the rampant and blatant s-xuality of secular culture, etc. etc. etc.

The repression of individuality may be one factor in sending a child over the edge, but it is only one factor, which for some children may play a negligible part or no part at all. Schools that do not follow a cookie-cutter philosophy also have children at risk.
Back to top

chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2007, 2:18 pm
Do you mean, b/c they want brandless clothes? Or a uniform look?
Back to top

Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2007, 3:57 pm
Mitzvahmom wrote:
I think she means chinuch wise..


It starts with the externals.

chen wrote:
A gross oversimplification


I agree with that, though I don't think the other factors you mentioned are significant causes.
Back to top

chen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2007, 11:18 pm
chocolate moose wrote:
Do you mean, b/c they want brandless clothes? Or a uniform look?


On the contrary, even public schools have gone over to unifoms b/c they find that children do better when they wear uniforms. the clothes competition is eliminated; security is improved b/c it is easy to ID who belongs in the school and who does not; and most importantly, there is a psychological effect that makes one ready to study when one is dressed to study.

Uniform dress is not a problem--demanding total uniformity of person and performance with no allowance for individual abilities (or lack thereof), individual needs, and individual points of view--is. Just look at the threads about not being allowed to ask certain questions in school.
Back to top

BeershevaBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2007, 11:51 pm
chen wrote:
A gross oversimplification, IMO, that completely ignores the contributions of so many other societal factors such as family violence, violence in the news, peer pressure, the ready availability of drugs, the rampant and blatant s-xuality of secular culture, etc. etc. etc.

The repression of individuality may be one factor in sending a child over the edge, but it is only one factor, which for some children may play a negligible part or no part at all. Schools that do not follow a cookie-cutter philosophy also have children at risk.


Friends of mine were/are having a terrible time finding a high school for their son. The better Yeshivot all wanted to know the level of Gemarah he can learn and well, quite frankly, the boy doesn't have a head for Gemarah.

So they keep getting refered to schools for learning disabled and 'at risk' kids.. neither of which this boy is. He just doesn't have what it takes to be a big learner. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But because all the better schools only look for it, he's going to have the potential to become at risk when forced into a class he doesn't belong in.
Back to top

chen




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, May 10 2007, 11:58 pm
Kmelion wrote:


So they keep getting refered to schools for learning disabled and 'at risk' kids.. neither of which this boy is. He just doesn't have what it takes to be a big learner. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But because all the better schools only look for it, he's going to have the potential to become at risk when forced into a class he doesn't belong in.


Oy.
Back to top

mumoo




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2007, 12:18 am
schools can forget that in order to have excellence, you have to have mediocrity. one of mine is not an A student, but is so gifted in many other areas. this child knows we recognize these traits and that we accept c's that come from good effort. (there's no excuse for low marks in middos)

regarding uniforms- imho- read what chen says, as usual she speaks my mind eloquently

chen wrote:
On the contrary, even public schools have gone over to unifoms b/c they find that children do better when they wear uniforms. the clothes competition is eliminated; security is improved b/c it is easy to ID who belongs in the school and who does not; and most importantly, there is a psychological effect that makes one ready to study when one is dressed to study.

Uniform dress is not a problem--demanding total uniformity of person and performance with no allowance for individual abilities (or lack thereof), individual needs, and individual points of view--is. Just look at the threads about not being allowed to ask certain questions in school.
Back to top

Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2007, 7:14 am
I think the main reasons are:

The home is not consistant with the school and does not back the school up. It is a good value to learn to live within the rules. At home they are made by Mom and Dad, at school first by hanhala them teachers, over all of them the KBH. When a kid has a hard time with a rule that nobody understands back up the right of the school to make rules always. If you real have a prob with the rule, meaning you see it as wrong not that you don't understand what its needed for, go yourself, w/o your kid to the hanhala. Never express your disagreement to the child unless it is something definitely immoral (and once I saw a rule like this).

The other thing I see is when kids chap that parents and/or educators are more interested in appearances or their name than the kid having a relationship with HaShem.

Third is when, if the parents have a relationship with HaShem, there is no visible evidence. They are far from "Shem HaShem shagur b'fiv". Their life is just like their frei neighbors in every aspect that is not purely religious and dati is their social grouping. If the parents want as much of the frei lifestyle as possible kids, who are more innocent and true, want the real thing and go looking for it or become frummer than their parents. Kids want real frum or real frei, not a knockoff.


Last edited by Imaonwheels on Fri, May 11 2007, 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2007, 7:18 am
one can always homeschool. Then everything is consistent :-)
Back to top

Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2007, 7:21 am
But it is much healthier for the child if you are in a frum community with good schools for the family to pull its socks up and match the school. Unless you want the family to be the child's only framework to be the family until 18-20. Go adjust to others after that.
Back to top

HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2007, 7:24 am
HOmeschoolesr have what to do with the community, and they connect with each other through many other venues. We aren't isolated. Esther, my homeschooling daughter goes to a youoth group and has friends here on the Yishuv. Her framework is much broader than it would be if she was in school.
Back to top

Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2007, 7:46 am
Kmelion wrote:

Friends of mine were/are having a terrible time finding a high school for their son. The better Yeshivot all wanted to know the level of Gemarah he can learn and well, quite frankly, the boy doesn't have a head for Gemarah.

So they keep getting refered to schools for learning disabled and 'at risk' kids.. neither of which this boy is. He just doesn't have what it takes to be a big learner. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But because all the better schools only look for it, he's going to have the potential to become at risk when forced into a class he doesn't belong in.


I think this is a much bigger problem wih boys. If your friends kid was a girl, so, she's not top of the class - but the school is able to see her other strengths.

I think more boys drop out for precisely this reason.
Back to top

chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2007, 10:22 am
many schools have unfirms, but others want a brand less look, and that's often hasrd to find in quality clothes.

that's also an issue.
Back to top

Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2007, 1:16 pm
[quote="Kmelion"]quite frankly, the boy doesn't have a head for Gemarah./quote]

so let's say the yeshivas accepted him anyway and he is unable to keep up with the class - then what?

You think there should be schools for weak (not at-risk) students? You think a classroom should have weak students as well as average and bright students? Do you think a Rebbi can teach a class like that and provide every student with what he needs?
Back to top

shayna82




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, May 11 2007, 1:22 pm
I think teachers should and are supposed to be able to teach kids who are on all different levels, all in the same class. what has happened to the definition of a good teacher??? I dont get it, everyone has to be on the same leve, same page in their mathbook, gemara whatever so that she can effectivly and efficently succeed as a teacher? I think the best teachers are the ones who DO have a class of kids all on different levels... that is normal and to be expected, we arent talking about harvard or private schools where everyone is on one level.

this reminds me of an article I read about in the future (not so distant future) and it had been done to some degree already, doctors can "fashion" a baby in a peetree dish with certain features.. making them a certain way. I know it sounds alienish like- the point of the article was- is this how our world is gonna be... everyone will have perfect features, all blond hair blue eyed babies with the same iq...
Back to top
Page 1 of 3 1  2  3  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Daughter was waitlisted at NJ high schools, what to do?
by amother
17 Today at 10:01 am View last post
List of MO schools in Brooklyn
by amother
3 Tue, Mar 26 2024, 9:07 am View last post
Getting into boys schools
by amother
0 Wed, Mar 20 2024, 12:07 pm View last post
Schools for daughter of converts in BP
by amother
107 Mon, Mar 18 2024, 9:48 am View last post
Rosh Chodesh Adar in Israeli schools
by amother
3 Thu, Mar 14 2024, 6:02 pm View last post