Are our schools demanding too much conformity and uniformit

Crayon210

Fri, May 11 2007, 2:18 pm

shayna82 wrote:

I think teachers should and are supposed to be able to teach kids who are on all different levels, all in the same class. what has happened to the definition of a good teacher??? I dont get it, everyone has to be on the same leve, same page in their mathbook, gemara whatever so that she can effectivly and efficently succeed as a teacher? I think the best teachers are the ones who DO have a class of kids all on different levels... that is normal and to be expected, we arent talking about harvard or private schools where everyone is on one level.

Why is the definition of a good teacher "one who can teach the highly gifted and the learning disabled at the same time"?

It's not practical, and moreoever, I don't think it's possible.

I think classes should be tracked according to academic ability.

shayna82

Fri, May 11 2007, 2:28 pm

I worked in a school in which the girls in the class who were slow in their reading or math or whatever subject.. would be taken out in groups and individually to brush up on stuff they were missing. I was one of those teachers. no one made fun of them, as it was fun and educational at the same time. these kids flourished and did well as the year went on. there was one who didnt out of a bunch. thats all kids need, most of the time. then they rejoined the classroom and functioned just like everyone else. no need for seperate classrooms and sepearte programs. being a teacher means you can touch each kid with your teaching abilities and love. kids feelings should be made a big deal of, cuz hen they grow up thinking so low of themselves and go on to be......

southernbubby

Fri, May 11 2007, 2:31 pm

I do a lot of subbing and I don't have the talent to work with multi-levels simultaneously. There are always a few, and sometimes they are the youngest in the class, that can't keep up. I can either hover over them and ignore the rest, or send them to another class for that session so that they can do something else. When they get goofy, they disturb everyone else. The little "chochim" who was leading the davening recently pointed to a kid with a finger up his nose and said "I think you need to watch him." There was a vast degree of difference in the level of ability of the sharp cookie and the other boy who was farshluft. Do they belong in the same class? If so, then we need to accept that the slower child will simply not succeed as much and we cannot expect as much. Maybe the parents will have to find the time to put intense effort into helping him stay up with the class by reviewing his chumash more times and listening to him daven at home.

shayna82

Fri, May 11 2007, 2:33 pm

yeah, paretns are another factor. what ever happened to summer learning, and tudors, extra help... yes, teachers cant reach every kid and they cant make everyone succeed. but they should at least try and not have the thought that those kids should be in a diffrent program cuz I cant help them.

there are special teachers that can sit in the class next to the kid that needs help, the other kids get used to it. there are systems that work. giving up is not one of them!

Crayon210

Fri, May 11 2007, 2:34 pm

There are lots of kids who don't do well just being pulled out for math. There are kids who get to high school and can't explain a pasuk even with help. Keeping them in the mainstream class just makes it worse every year. If it were just a math issue or a reading issue, fine. But when so many students get to high school and can't translate a simple pasuk or Rashi...

If we de-emphasize class level = value as a person, then this won't be a self-esteem issue.

shayna82

Fri, May 11 2007, 2:39 pm

so u say, institute another grade leve for each grade-- for kids that dont get the rashis and cant read a pasuk... those kids need help at home. and u know what else- if they cant read a pasuk when they are in highschool... something else is going on. a girl in my class couldnt read english- even at the age of 18. she struggled with each word. lots of stuff was going on at home, low self esteem- abuse in some form of the other.... so having another class for kids who are behind may not be h eanswer, there are other factors that teachers dont always know and see

southernbubby

Fri, May 11 2007, 5:33 pm

I have seen several schools in Lubavitch for boys who are on a vocational track. In the Litvish yeshiva here there are several boys with special needs and intellectual deficits in a program for their needs. In any community where there are several boys who want or need a different track, the parents can meet with the hanhala and see if the yeshiva is willing to add a program. It is usually the parents who will need to do the footwork because the hanhala needs to see that the parents will work with them. Parents can't ask why "they" don't realize that certain programs are needed. Parents themselves are the "they" and need to empower themselves.

bandcm

Sat, May 12 2007, 9:18 pm

shayna82 wrote:

The Tudor line ended about 450 years ago. Elizabeth I didn't get married you know...
(Sorry, just couldn't resist. I actually agree with you - teachers can and should be able to handle different levels in the same classroom.)

amother

Sun, May 13 2007, 2:40 am

My husband ended up jumping from yeshiva to yeshiva and finally leaving yeshiva altogether at a young age because every single yeshiva just taught gemara, gemara, and more gemara, and my husband doesn't have a head for gemara- he never really understood it, doesn't understand aramaic, and whenever people tried to explain it to him, they just explained what it was talking about in general, but he STILL didn't understand the words.
And its not that my husband is dumb/a bad student in ANY WAY. Gemara just isnt his thing.
He learns on his own now- mishna brura (and other halacha), chumash, chok liyisrael, chassidus, kabbalah, mussar. And he has a chavrusa for gemara that actually is explaining him the words for the first time in his life, and he's starting to enjoy gemara.
If they had a yeshiva where they focused a little on gemara, and the rest on halacha, tanach, mussar, chassidus, etc, so many more boys would thrive. Gemara isn't the only part of the torah.

Imaonwheels

Sun, May 13 2007, 3:08 am

Boys and girls are fundamentally different because of the curriculum. Because the girls schools have basically taken on the western school frameworks of academic subjects that are compartmentalized it is easier to work with different levels in the same class. Gemora study requires a totally different set of skills and needs a totally different set of teaching methods. The mamad school in Elon Moreh and the Barkai school in Karnei Shomron tried using the more modern way of workbooks, etc to Gemora and both schools ended up with a class of kids at all levels including very bright who could not even read the Aramaic text after 2 years of study. My son was in one of those classes and caught up in 2 weeks when moved to the reg cheder in Immanuel.

When speaking to hanhalot who are considering changing methods I continually have to remind them that yeshivot are interested in 2 things: Gemora and behaviour/yiras shamayim. They also unfortunately pair the 2. Ther4e are yiras shamayim boys who are poor in Gemora and there are G-d given Gemora kops who could seriously use some yiras shamayim or at least some lessons in derech eretz.

With that said we have to live in the world while trying to change it. Rav Yishayahu Weber, a long time successful educator who manages an after school facility for kids with difficulties in learning (LD and correctable probs) and trains special ed melamdim, breaks down the skills needed to learn Gemora and how the parent and/or teacher can recognize a lack in one or more of the 5 skills. Some where on this board I have lested the skills in other posts. If you read Hebrew I suggest getting R' Webber's books. The language is extremely simple. He did not invent the ideas, he just collected them and applied them to the study of Gemora.

I think the time has come to ask the "at risk experts" to put their money where there mouth is. They are rabbis and respected members in their communities. Let them stop writing articles and books blaming others and put their efforts into working out the tremendous problems involved and help found a yeshiva for well behaved boys are who are slower in Gemora learning but are sincerely yiras shamayim and want to be good Jews who are knowledgeable to their ability. To not mix them with a general lump of behaviour problems. "Vocational tracks" as they are used today are garbage dumps.

Imaonwheels

Sun, May 13 2007, 3:14 am

Two track systems in a single school tend to cause social problems. The kids in the slower track chap that they are the "dumb" kids. Derech eretz for the fast track can be totally lost. In girls schools were there is more than one class in each grade there is an ongoing argument about how to best divide the girls. Uniformly by frumkeit or academic ability or 2 hetergenous classes where the stronger girls are expected to help and be an example for the weak. Too many schools take the easy way out. They take all of the "good girls" and really invest in the class and in the other class they isolate the "bad girls" so they won't influence the good girls.

gryp

Sun, May 13 2007, 1:20 pm

I can see where the social problems would come in, but I don't think it has to be that way at all. It depends on the attitude of the school and parents. It doesn't have to be labelled "Slow class" and "Fast class," it could be "Gemara" "Gemara with Rashi" "Gemara with Rashi and Tosfos," for example, or however the principal decided to split it up in the most beneficial way for the students. It could be "Yiddish class" or "English class," both learning the same material but differently.
I would absolutely not seperate the kids considered to be bad influences from the regular kids. The seperation would be based on learning styles only.

Quote:

I think the time has come to ask the "at risk experts" to put their money where there mouth is. They are rabbis and respected members in their communities. Let them stop writing articles and books blaming others and put their efforts into working out the tremendous problems involved and help found a yeshiva for well behaved boys are who are slower in Gemora learning but are sincerely yiras shamayim and want to be good Jews who are knowledgeable to their ability. To not mix them with a general lump of behaviour problems. "Vocational tracks" as they are used today are garbage dumps.

If only.

Tefila

Sun, May 13 2007, 1:29 pm

Quote:

gr and imaonwheels Thumbs Up