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How to handle these meltdowns



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amother


 

Post Mon, Sep 01 2014, 10:48 pm
I am WIPED OUT right now, and this is when the kids have been asleep over an hour.
DD almost 4 years old was uncooperative at bedtime, did not respond to warnings, and therefore earned herself the consequence of not getting to choose a bedtime story (I was going to unofficially allow her to listen in on her sibling's bedtime story, though. Usually they each choose a book.) By uncooperative, I mean repeatedly running away from pajamas and brushing teeth, refusing to use the bathroom, and talking chutzpadik like "if you come to me to brush my teeth I will just run the other way."

I am not aware of anything that would have triggered this mood. We had a relaxing pleasant non-tiring day at home, went to the park in the afternoon where she ran around plenty and got to shake out all her need for activity, had a very peaceful pleasant suppertime in which she ate a very decent and nutritious meal. She did not have sugary treats except a small something that was much earlier in the day and should not have had such a dramatic effect (I do think she gets hyper from too much sugar but not such a long time after and the portion was very controlled) She had not woken up especially early and supper/bedtime progressed right on time (until the meltdown) and she seems to have been feeling fine lately. Basically, the setup was perfect, no foreboding or triggery anything.

I started with nonverbal (coming closer, trying to help child into pajamas, sometimes that works and I can just slip them on with no fuss, but she wrestled away) then chilled out/positive approach (let's see how quickly we can get ready for bed! hurry up and we'll have an extra special bedtime story!) progressed to firm tone (not joking, teeth brushing NOW.) progressed to warning (must be brushed and ready cooperatively starting now or no book) and then consequence (OK, you threw the pajamas and ran away from teethbrushing again, so no book tonight)

So here's question #1: Did I do anything wrong until now?
And Question #2: What else could be a reasonable consequence for this behavior since bedtime stories seem to be such an inviolable part of the routine for her that every time I have had to resort to this we have some sort of meltdown (though tonight was the worst yet)

THEN. omg. Now, at first when I heard her cry and scream in response to a consequence, I thought she is just not used to this, trying to manipulate her way out of it, or just upset because we don't do it often enough, and she will get used to it and learn that she needs to listen to avoid punishment. However it seems that it never gets any better, in fact it seems more intense each time. Also, the hysteria seems beyond tantrum level, and only escalates and never ends. If I stay away, it escalates; if I try to intervene, it escalates. She started with just crying "I need my book, I need my book." And then angry screams: "AAAAAAH! RAAAAAAH!" that seemed as if she was intentionally trying to give me an earache because I had upset her. Then she just bawled and bawled. In the past when she's had tantrums like this I've usually waited it out for a bit, then I come closer offering to help her calm down and re-work what happened and she usually accepts and makes up - if she isn't ready then she'll start to push me away, I'll back off, and try again in a few minutes and then she accepts. This time she repeatedly pushed and hit me and DH every time, no matter how we approached. I tried to do this very lovingly because at that point it was not about the pajamas or the book or the hitting, but my baby was clearly in pain and I wanted to help her calm down and sort it out. But she was just hysterical and flailing and screaming GO AWAY! and things like that. I tried validating her anger, mirroring her angry noises with feeling, she wouldn't hear any of it. I tried just being with her, no dice. A couple of times I held her against her will, theoretically I feel that's wrong but she seemed so out of control I thought maybe a deep hug could help her get grounded, and at one point it was just because she was being so violent I felt she had to learn that it is not OK to hit that way. Each time whenever I touched her she just struggled and flailed and screamed - LET GO! PUT ME DOWN! etc. So as I'm writing this it sounds like just a tantrum, but I'm telling you there was something so intense about this! It was just insane! Then she started throwing things out of anger. I offered her a drink to help her calm down, and she said (sobbed) yes she wants a drink, then insisted on getting her own drink, couldn't find it, couldn't express to us which drink she wanted, took the nearest sippy cup and hurled it really hard against the room.

Q3: What do you do about a child who in a state of hysteria and temper throws hard objects? Seems dangerous to me. We can't exactly put her in a padded cell.

She was clearly very very angry. She started looking for things to do to me. B"H she did not throw hard projectiles at me. Instead she found a building toy that is pretty flexible, took it apart a chunk at a time and put it on my head with some force but not really violent. So I kind of sat there calmly and acceptingly, said something like "wow, you're really really angry at mommy" but I guess it wasn't enough to get it out of her system. Next thing she found to take out on was a tube of sunscreen, that stuff besides being expensive never comes out of clothes as far as I can tell, so DH removed it from her hand before she could open it, triggering a renewed bout of screaming and histrionics.

Oh god. I was ready to kill myself by now. The screaming was so loud and intense (we live in a small apartment, I left the room at a couple of points but I didn't feel OK leaving for a longer amount of time, and nowhere would have really gotten away from the noise) my ears were ringing and my head was exploding, plus the tension of not knowing what to do with the child, her refusal to let me come near her in any way, we're talking about more than half an hour here.

Eventually she took herself to the table where our CD player was parked and quite forcefully attempted to turn on her favorite CD. I was a little worried because I didn't know if she was looking for something else to smash or what, but then I saw it seemed she was looking to calm herself with the music (after FORTY MINUTES of hysteria) I offered to help her which of course she rejected, then I simply pointed at the right button so she pushed it and got the music and started to quiet down. (BTW, in a different tantrum I tried turning on music to calm her but it only made things worse as she screamed to turn it off. So nix that idea.) I sat down next to her and just sat quietly for a little bit. She started making other demands (That's not the music I wanted! I need a tissue!) I tried to strike the delicate balance between letting a tantruming DD boss me around vs antagonizing her further, and I think I did OK with some combination of prompting for civility but lowering my usual standards of civility. She got her music change, her tissue, and some ice to suck on. A couple of times I offered to let her sit on my lap but she was clearly still angry in the way she said no. She let me stroke her back, though, and eventually lay her head down in my lap (I don't want you to hold me! I don't want to sit on you! ...only my head.) I said "OK" focusing on loving, accepting, calming, etc.

After the music ended I started talking to her about how I love her and don't want to make her sad. I said children need to learn to listen when the mommy and daddy say it's time to do things like brushing teeth. It seems taking away book choice makes you very sad and angry. Let's think of a different way to help you remember what you need to do so this doesn't happen again. Nobody came up with anything viable... to her credit, after a LOT of thinking, DD did say something on her own - which was basically the books thing all over again, which puzzles me because that's what she got all hysterical about in the first place. So we put the conversation on hold until morning.

Meanwhile, she still refused to use the bathroom before going to bed. She also said she was "too tired" to say Shema (I say it with her, so I said it anyway and she just didn't say it along) I didn't comment about that but we usually give her a sticker when she says it nicely, and she asked for the sticker anyway so I said "sticker is when you say shema. You can say it now if you want" She started screaming and crying again and I as so afraid we were going back to square one! But she got over it pretty fast and let me tuck her into bed, still without relieveing herself which I suspect she was holding in for a while....


is this a normal part of childrearing?! HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THIS?! Entire family miserable for an hour over this! I couldn't put anyone else to sleep because of all the screaming! And at the end I was so traumatized and thoroughly wiped out I haven't been able to do anything else productive, I should have gone straight to sleep but instead I decided to type this up and hope someone has a miracle to send me. Thank G-d this doesnt happen often but when it does it really throws me for a loop.
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amother


 

Post Mon, Sep 01 2014, 11:05 pm
I'm following this... Sounds just like my five year old daughter...
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 01 2014, 11:20 pm
Your recall in this much detail might mean you are too involved.

Perhaps back off a bit, let the kid have more control, simply don't be so involved.

Perhaps wordlessly get her dressed and brushed, with a few very minor caresses, but hardly any words, just smiles. She sounds overtired and over everything-ed.

Your post says: "A couple of times I offered to let her sit on my lap but she was clearly still angry in the way she said no. She let me stroke her back, though, and eventually lay her head down in my lap (I don't want you to hold me! I don't want to sit on you! ...only my head.) I said "OK" focusing on loving, accepting, calming, etc. "

Don't offer things. Too many words. Lap-sitting should be the child's idea; then it is always given, but with no ceremony. But here, it was your idea. You are bribing for silence. But that is irritating to someone who is already over-stimulated and very tired. And who now has to talk and think, because you are.

You say you have a small apartment. Perhaps get her a boundary thing, like a tent, or putting up a bookcase barrier, or something to get her a more privacy, more defined territory.

Consider if anybody may be hassling her at pre-school, or the babysitter's. Do these tantrums coincide with one particular person being around her? Or one particular situation, or event, or absence, or anything? Even a particular food they gave her at snack time you didn't know about, and they don't usually give her?

Of course lower the lighting as you wind the house down, and cool it somehow, fans, or something. Cool makes people want to bundle and snuggle into bed.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 01 2014, 11:39 pm
Ouch! What a tempest.

The good news -- you did a lot of things right. You let her know that misbehavior was unacceptable. You let her know that she is loved regardless.

A few places you might have done differently. First, can you think of something positive to focus on? Maybe story time is always10 minutes and not removed entirely, but you get more (15-20) for cooperating with teeth and pj's, one mnute per sticker.

Second, when kids start misbehaving, you can sometimes draw them back by keeping calm and praising what they do right. "Estie ran away from her pajamas. That was too silly. Let's see how fast she can run back here. 1, 2, 3, GO!" If she then cooperates, praise her. "You are so speedy, let's see how fast you can brush those teeth!" If she doesn't, try warning in a very calm impersonal way, focusing on her power to choose. "I guess Estie is choosing not to have a book tonight. OK. Maybe she will surprise me. But it will be her choice."

Finally, when meltdowns happen, you prolong them and up the violence ante by feeding them with attention. Make sure the other kids are out of harm's way. Then, ignore her. Restraining, back patting, all make everyone extra miserable by prolonging and exacerbating the tantrum. Don't feed it with attention. Save the comfort and attention for after she is calm, when you can say, "You did a great job calming down. Tomorrow, we will figure out how to make things easier. I love you. Do you want to say Shema yourself and get a sticker, or do you want me to say it for you tonight?"

Do follow up with her. Ask her why she was running away. Did she just feel in a silly mood, or does she hate those pajamas, or was something bothering her? Use her answer to help you handle her better next time.

All this is strategy I have learned over many years of doing it wrong. I hope it can help!
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 12:13 am
Amother, hugs, I hope and pray my kid is past this before 5! Yikes!

Dolly, my detailed recall is because it was SO intense, and just happened now.
The whole problem was that I could not wordlessly get her brushed and dressed because she was fighting/running away. With pajamas I have a policy that if you don't cooperate, you don't get my help getting into them - you can either figure it out yourself or sleep without the pj's. This seems to be pretty compelling most of the time. But with the teeth brushing I have not yet figured out a system - most of the time it just goes uneventfully, often with a little humor and a pointed reminder about books.
I dunno, was it really too much to say "Would you like Mommy to hold you?" after she'd already calmed down? It was already almost an hour past bedtime due to all the carrying on, I was trying to move things along towards quicker resolution.
Interesting point about not making her talk and think while overstimulated. That rings true for me/her. Will have to remember that.
Privacy is also an issue, will have to see if we can do something about that, though I don't know if she'd be willing to go to a private place in such a fit. But it would be good to have in general. I'm just worried about cutting off airflow - no room for furniture to divide, it would have to be a curtain.
No preschool/babysitter now, we are all between camp and school but I've been keeping it flowing pretty well at home, we had a great day until this.
Lights were already off from the beginning of PJ time (there is soft light coming from hallway/kitchen) and the a/c was on all day.


Imasinger, extended book time is a good idea. In the past I measured books by 1 or 2, long or short, but it wasn't really an effective discipline tool because she didn't really mind being limited to just one book or just short books. I had it framed like if you take too long getting ready for bed, then we only have time for one short book, or something like that. Also, that was for dallying but tonight she was overtly almost defiant so I'm not sure that's the way... not just fooling around, but really not listening. I dunno if 10 minutes of books instead of 15 is really going to send her much of a message about that.
I do frame it as a choice. Don't know if it makes a difference to her. Certainly didn't tonight. I don't think she quite gets it as much as I say it.
I tried ignoring the tantrum. How long is normal for it to escalate? She was going onward and upward with such intensity, and not slowing down at all when I ignored it. I just wasn't sure how long it's OK to leave your kid being so hysterical? Also, to an extent I had to get in her way, because she was trying to manhandle the door lock to run out of the house. Tell me how I should get a better lock that she can't undo - you'd be right of course, but in the moment I just had to block her. She would only have gotten to our outer hallway anyway, not to the street, so it's not like our lock is totally unsafe but outer hallway was not where we wanted her to be tonight in middle of a fit.
So you would not restrain when she is finding projectiles and hurling them across the room, or running after parents smacking and kicking? What DO you do, then?!

I can try the follow up but I'm sure she won't want to talk about it tomorrow. Also I am pretty clear that the reason she was running away was shtick/silliness/testing. I don't think she could articulate deeper reasons than that.

If you don't do anything during the tantrum, how do you teach them how to calm themselves down? She really looked like she needed help. She just kept getting more and more hysterical, escalating from crying to screaming to trying to hurt things/people, louder and louder and seemingly losing her head completely, do you really think she can calm down from that without help? It seems to me she has a difficulty here. She is my first child though so if you tell me this is normal I might try to believe you... but really, it seemed SO intense. She may be my first but I have friends and neighbors and babysitees and nieces and nephews and I have ALMOST never seen anything like this in intensity (I have seen tantrums aplenty though) The only child I have seen throw fits with this intensity continued to have temper problems through teen age (is still teenager but IMHO even though he has come a really long way I still don't have the highest hopes for his future considering he still has issues with this) so it's kind of scary. Also, that person started with the tantrums in toddlerhood and had communication diffculties/frustrations, so it's really a different story than my child whose toddler tantrums were of the totally normal sort that she snapped out of when ignored and then didn't really have for about a year until this started happening, and my child has NO communication barriers and is very expressive. Only now has started primal screaming technique when she does not get what she wants. Oh God make it stop, my ears are permanently destroyed already... I really can't handle this!
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Dolly Welsh




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 12:20 am
"If you don't do anything during the tantrum, how do you teach them how to calm themselves down? "

I am NO medic or shrink of any kind but my reaction to that sentence is, you don't. You allow the child to develop the ability, from living it, to do this for themselves. Obviously you are vigilant that they don't do anything dangerous. Apart from that you don't inject emotional support because they can't process it right then and you are rescuing them from something they need to work out for themselves.

Maybe.

Ask a professional.

I have been able to helpfully talk to stressed adults, but they weren't having a tantrum, they were stressed but holding on, and, they wanted to talk. They were able to talk, though I kept the talk very simple. But that was an adult.

You sound like a very intelligent and caring observer of her, so as you say this was disturbingly intense and it has happened before, please do talk to your pediatrician. There are books you might look into such as "Parenting a Spirited Child".

You are the mother and I trust your observations completely. You know your child's baseline usual ways; and your instincts are those of a mother. If you feel this is odd and strange, ask for some professional guidance.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 12:30 am
I have the spirited child book. It has been insightful in many ways but still leaves me clueless in this situation. It's a lot about preventing from getting to meltdown stage, but she seems to snap so suddenly.

Her pediatrician basically says "kids have tantrums, nu?" but he's never been in our house...

I'm having her evaluated for therapy by the DOE but she never does this in school so I doubt they'll give us anything. It is taking ages because they wouldn't do it close to the end of the last school year, wouldn't do it over the summer, and won't do it until the second week of school and her school starts so ridiculously late (just for kindergarten. What on Earth? Tuition seems to be the same, they already get dismissed earlier - dunno what you do when you have kids in different grades, spend the whole afternoon chasing buses? - and now they start a week later too. *smh*) but at least we do have the eval booked for that second week of school. If they'll give us anything useful anyway.

I tried a psychology clinic affiliated with the pediatrician's office and played phone tag with them ALL summer and they still didn't give me an appointment. (I tried independent psychology clinics others mention around here and they don't service kids this young)

There is no way in heaven or earth I can afford to go private.

I'm so frustrated Sad
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 12:40 am
My 5 year old DS has these intense tantrums also .
I have no advice just sympathy .
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nechamad




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 12:55 am
You sound like a wonderful, caring, amazingly patient mother.
I have kids like this too. The good news is that as they get older they're fine. I have a 5-year-old who is still working on it, but she's getting there. I would leave her and come back every couple of minutes to ask if she needs a hug. (I would try to make sure there was nothing to throw/destroy, but usually my kids just screamed on the floor and didn't really break anything.) I just keep leaving and coming back. For me, it is really pointless to engage them in any conversation at that point. I also don't talk about it later. We just start fresh.
Good luck! I hope it passes quickly. She's lucky to have you.
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amother


 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 1:00 am
I guess part of the problem is that unfortunately I just don't see any way to ensure that there's nothing she can destroy or hurt people with. We live in a TINY space so there is a limit to how much we can keep things out of reach, and generally our kids are well behaved so we can be lax about certain things (I would never leave knives or poison around, but I don't USUALLY have to worry that someone will purposely hurl, say, a chair...) Also as hard as I try I am by nature an untidy person so there is always something around. I can't put everything away before bedtime just in case someone starts throwing things! Also this doesn't always happen at bedtime. It's happened a total of maybe 5 times ever and only maybe half were at bedtime. I can't ALWAYS keep EVERY potential projectile out of reach! And in her rage she almost destroyed the book that she wanted read. She stopped herself short of totally destroying it, but it did get quite bent out of shape. Sad
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Sep 02 2014, 6:36 am
I think evaluation is a good idea. Your record of this tantrum is detailed and will be very helpful. Keep writing what you see!

You are 100% right that you cannot ignore a child doing something provocatively dangerous. When that happens in my home, I say firmly, "You are out of control and not being safe. You need to go into time out for 3 minutes of quiet. Go sit in the time out space NOW. When you have a quiet voice and a calm body, I can start the timer."

This works because I have discussed and practiced time outs with the kids when they are calm. They know that a) the time out is short, b) the consequences of not doing it are severe (loss of a favorite activity fo a week), abd c) they will be given a completely fresh start as soon as it is over.

I have the prime house rule posted on a sign I can point to. (No hurting people. No hurting things.) When that rule is broken, it is time out for a short period of sitting quietly. Afterwards, the child is praised for doing a good job in time out, no matter if I had to stop and restart the timer a few times (for not following timeout rules) or not. A while later, we can talk about what caused the meltdown, and work on solving the problems together.

I have several kids with ASD and ADHD, so meltdowns can happen a lot. My strategies come from a wonderful bok called "Parenting the Difficult Child: The Nurtured Heart Approach". And from some therapists.
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