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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Teens going off the derech and personality
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 2:29 pm
chocolate moose wrote:
Green, I'm just saying, that I KNEW my son would be problematic; when he was TWO YEARS OLD he wouldn't do what the other kids were doing (learning mishnayos by heart, if my memory serves me correctly).

And, as per the other post, he had a real candy problem.

Sometimes a motherjust knows - and then ppl say, you get the most naches from those who gave you the most trouble, I think it's b/c you don't expect anything from these kids!


What did you do to try to stop this from happening?
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 2:36 pm
Crayon, I sent him to the best schools, he had good friends, he went to camp, he had everything....Okay, everthing but fancy LUb family which I could not help.

I think it was genetics that got him in the end - both dh and I have brothers who are, how to say . . ..mmm, I'm not gonnna say it. Oh, my mom's brother are, too.

DD isn't as bad off, but . . . .
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:00 pm
chocolate moose wrote:
Crayon, I sent him to the best schools, he had good friends, he went to camp, he had everything....Okay, everthing but fancy LUb family which I could not help.

I think it was genetics that got him in the end - both dh and I have brothers who are, how to say . . ..mmm, I'm not gonnna say it. Oh, my mom's brother are, too.

DD isn't as bad off, but . . . .


What does having a fancy Lubavitch family have to do with anything?

What did you do for him as a mother? Not where did you send him.

I don't buy the genetics thing, sorry.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:09 pm
I have heard from more than one source that kids growing up should have grandparetns, uncles, a large extended frum family, etc.

Oh, the mother thing? Motek has suggested that being a working mom actually worked against me . . along with that, I only worked until 4 PM and met the yeshiva bus on the way home, but I guess we don't have to go there...

Are you asking if I read to him, did play dough with him, take him to the park and stuff? Sure I did! We went to shul, too,and shiurim, brissin, friends houses . . all the normal kiddie things.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:20 pm
Ok- if you ask me, I think teens that go off the derech are either GIFTED or SCHOLASTICALLY CHALLENGED. In my experience, you never find an average kid going off the derech- its either a kid thats pretty smart or a kid that has learning difficulties. Tell me if you agree with me or not- this is just according to my experience.
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amother


 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:29 pm
CM, don't forget your son has not finished growing up yet! You don't know where he will be in 5 years time. I am saying this because I have a brother who went off - who until he was 15 or so, was the best kid in the school, came home with all the prizes, very frum etc and then he had some bad experiences with some teachers. However, my parents let him stay at home, whatever he was doing, and now he is frum again. He still has some way to go, and he will never be a typical bochur, but he has settled down.

So, you never know - don't give up, whatever your son is up to.

Oh, and we also have very few frum relatives but I don't think there is a connection there.

Hatzlacha. Smile
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:32 pm
chocolate moose wrote:
I have heard from more than one source that kids growing up should have grandparetns, uncles, a large extended frum family, etc.

Oh, the mother thing? Motek has suggested that being a working mom actually worked against me . . along with that, I only worked until 4 PM and met the yeshiva bus on the way home, but I guess we don't have to go there...

Are you asking if I read to him, did play dough with him, take him to the park and stuff? Sure I did! We went to shul, too,and shiurim, brissin, friends houses . . all the normal kiddie things.


There are plenty of kids that are fine without the grandparents, etc., and plenty of kids that aren't fine with all the grandparents. I don't even think it's a factor. Maybe it's an excuse.

I was just asking as a mother what did you do. I'm not debating the working mom thing.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:33 pm
breslov wrote:
Ok- if you ask me, I think teens that go off the derech are either GIFTED or SCHOLASTICALLY CHALLENGED. In my experience, you never find an average kid going off the derech- its either a kid thats pretty smart or a kid that has learning difficulties. Tell me if you agree with me or not- this is just according to my experience.


Nope. I know plenty run of the mill kids who went off.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:34 pm
cm don't go back over history and try and rearrange your life to find trhe magical formula that would have made your son frum. There isnt' any and the guilt isn't worthwhile. Who knows what the reason was? I don't think it was genetics, I don't think it was nature, I think it was probably an interplay of the two, which doesn't mean it was your fault, but it just was....

If children came with instruction manuels maybe we normal parents could take on the blame...but children make their own decisions in life; eventually it is their decision.

And what amother said is right...your son could return to frumkeit...

Pray, and have hope. And love him no matter what.
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:52 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
breslov wrote:
Ok- if you ask me, I think teens that go off the derech are either GIFTED or SCHOLASTICALLY CHALLENGED. In my experience, you never find an average kid going off the derech- its either a kid thats pretty smart or a kid that has learning difficulties. Tell me if you agree with me or not- this is just according to my experience.


Nope. I know plenty run of the mill kids who went off.

100% run of the mill kids?
Hrmm. Are you sure they were run of the mill, and had no problems in school, and weren't too smart for their own good?
The reason why I ask, is because I know in general gifted kids tend to be rebels and dropouts in general, whether jewish or not, and hence, give them more of a difficulty when it comes to teachers not tolerating questions... Gifted kids sometimes like to put teachers on the spot, who in turn riddicule them, etc...
I know very few gifted kids that didn't rebel at some point.
But then again, this is just MY limited experience talking, it could be I'm very wrong. It was just this theory I had.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 3:53 pm
I know some kids who were very average (thought they were tormented geniuses, of course Rolling Eyes) and went off.
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 5:12 pm
Tht's the beef I have with the Schonbach book. It's a parenting manual, and I honestly think I did all I could!

Some of it is up to the kid!

And honeslty, it's not the kids who make an intellectual chshbon about the Aibishter that go off. Some of it is laziness. too.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 5:15 pm
EstiS wrote:
How much of it (kids who grow to teens that go off the derech) is personality based?
I'm sure there are many different factors that can contribute to a teen going off the derech, but I'm wondering what particular personality traits do parents need to keep an eye out for that can put a kid at greater risk.

Off the bat, I'm thinking low self esteem may be one to look out for.
Kids who are more susceptible to peer pressure...


I don't think the posts here answered your question. There's a separate thread called Risk Factors.

As for 2 years olds and learning mishnayos by heart - sure, that's after memorizing Haazinu and Birchos Yaakov at age 1 Rolling Eyes
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 5:16 pm
In Crown Heights, the kids start at a young age memorizing and such.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 5:20 pm
no 2 year olds or 3 year olds or 4 year olds or ... memorize Mishnayos in CH
if any do, they are exceptions to the rule and highly unusual, nothing for other mothers to worry about
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 5:22 pm
I'm telling ya Motek. I was a workimg mom and my son was always in school!
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 5:24 pm
and so?

your information about Mishnayos in incorrect
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Lechatchila Ariber




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 5:25 pm
I don't have the head right now to read the responses in depth but will later

just this
Quote:
Maybe avoiding dogmatism is a good way to pre-empt this..(for instance, I remember my Dad sent me to bed without any supper when I asked "Now, was FDR really a good president??) That's what really caused me to question things, and since politics was like a 'religion" in my home, I had to go "off that derech." Parents with inquisitive children should be prepared to hear (but not to put up with!!) anything and show strength rather than anger!

was something I was thinking about

chocolate moose you can't be serious about that mishnayos at 2 years old comment can you.
shock

I think if a parent thinks she KNOWS at the age of two that her child is going to have a problem with going off the derech, then that in-itself is a risk factor....
You put an expectation on the child they may end up living up to.

Motek wrote:

As for 2 years olds and learning mishnayos by heart - sure, that's after memorizing Haazinu and Birchos Yaakov at age 1
Rolling Eyes
glad I'm not the only one with that reaction
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chocolate moose




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 5:26 pm
Motek, did you ever live in C.H.? Do you have any kids or grandchildren in the neighborhood?

(All of a sudden today, several posters are telling me that my experiences and recollections are not quite right . . . do they live my life?)
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Lechatchila Ariber




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 13 2007, 5:28 pm
I'm with motek. getting a 2 year old to learn mishnayos by heart and thinking they will go off the derech if they don't is just Rolling Eyes Drunken Smile Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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