How to Approach the "Perfect" Secular Jew?

Emuna

Tue, May 15 2007, 10:16 pm

I know people who have everything. Great families, money, lavish parties, and supposedly "perfect" Judaism (something along the lines of Conservative/traditional). They know that they have it all, and Orthodox Judaism would be considered extreme to them. They have kids and send them to Jewish schools for the first few years, but then ritzy private schools. From my perspective their life is so shallow and superficial, but they think they have it all.

So I really need help here. They look at our family as "extreme" so how can what we're doing ever help them, by inviting them? They don't want help or think they need help. Spirituality is nothing to them. I was asked by one of them the meaning of Lag B'Omer and I explained it complete with major references to "Kabbalah" and how we are all one soul and how important ahavas yisroel is. You know something? I got this glazed sort "hmm, interesting" response followed by another topic entirely.

Should we just give up and stop trying to spend precious time with these sweet Jewish people in order to open their mind to yiddishkeit? I feel like I'm wasting my time. And if I should keep trying, what should I say? How do you convince someone who has it all (even traditional Judaism) that yiddishkeit is important Question

imaamy

Tue, May 15 2007, 10:30 pm

There are some families at my kids' school who have become more observant as a result of being at the school and being included in community activities. So keep trying! Those who are receptive will be and those who aren't, won't.

amother

Tue, May 15 2007, 10:56 pm

Yes, I definitely know the feeling and have been in similar situations to the one you're describing. There's the pintele yid, though, the inner part of every Jew that is totally one with and cannot stray from Hashem. The question is how to reach it.

Some will say "wow!" to divrei torah and chassidus. Others need the "Shabbos feeling" of the Shabbos table and the meal. Others are touched when they see frum yidden with true "emunah," truly living in the ways of Hashem, even when it isn't so convenient...

Every single Yid has the potential to say "wow!" at something. The question for you is just to find that unique "thing" that will touch these Yidden. And, at least from my experiences, those that seem to "have everything" really feel the most lack inside. Good luck, Emuna, and let us know how it goes!

cdawnr

Tue, May 15 2007, 10:57 pm

Keep trying, invite them for meals or holidays but keep it light...

Very often kiruv works by the light and subtle touch...mostly just be their friends and throw int he yiishkeit on the side, refer to it as such an integral part of yourself.

Jus tmy thoughts

Marion

Tue, May 15 2007, 11:27 pm

Yeah, hearing a detailed explanation including lots of kabbalah wouldn't do it for me either. I need halacha, pure and simple. When I'm ready, I'll ask about minhagim and the "extras". They might have felt you were a bit overboard in your explanation. I would stop trying to "convert" them...they know you're available if and when they have more questions.

Mitzvahmom

Tue, May 15 2007, 11:32 pm

something I learned in my family..

If your calm and not "crazy," they tend to be more accepting and welcoming.

But if you push your self on them, and how yoru life is... They shut down and speak badly about u behind yoru back... As if your better than them, and they see u as stuckup..

See in my family I am the intermediary person, so I know both sides..

JRKmommy

Wed, May 16 2007, 1:39 am

Realize that everyone will have their own "key" and entrance point. Be sensitive to your audience.

I think it would be pretty rare to have a huge explanation suddenly dazzle someone into becoming observant. Again, know your audience.

Jews everywhere tend to respond to food. My family may sometimes wonder if I'm "too" frum - but they love to come for a good Shabbat dinner!

Jews also tend to respond to the idea of family. Make kids welcome, and get them involved. Seeing happy families is also inspiring.

Helping out people in times of need is always appreciated - and even people with "perfect" lives may have moments of crisis or grief.

Ruchel

Wed, May 16 2007, 1:57 am

I would never refer to traditional Jews as assimilated or secular!

But apart from that, show them http://www.simpletoremember.co.....s.htm
It is the nightmare of traditional Jews, because they know deep inside they are taking risks with their children education, but they hate the idea of intermarriage.

brooklyn

Wed, May 16 2007, 7:12 am

Keep it light and casual. In my opinion appearance is also a big thing. No offense to anyone but many not frum Jews have the impression that frum Jews and especially Chasidim are slobs. Make sure house is always clean and uncluttered and kids are always clean and neat, including having shirts tucked in. Even the way you thow out your trash, make sure that the bins are not overflowing and things are not thrown haphaserdly. (Take a walk down the alleys by Crown Street and you'll see what I mean about the trash.) I work with many not frum people as well as non Jews and believe me what I just said is what I have heard from them.

Emuna

Wed, May 16 2007, 11:50 am

Lots of great ideas here - but remember, I'm not talking about whether or not they like me. That's not the point. The point is to turn them on to Torah Judaism when they believe they have the "perfect" Judaism (and happy, stable families, etc.) Honestly, I don't care whether or not they like me personally. I love what you're saying about being sensitive and finding that "key" for every Jew, and tapping into it. I will use this advice. You made me rethink my "deep spirituality" method, which I always assume will work for everyone because it worked for me. I'm that type, so I can't relate so well to the Marion-types. Thanks so much Very Happy

amother

Wed, May 16 2007, 2:38 pm

imaamy wrote:

the problem is that she takes them out of the Jewish schools otherwise I'd say I agree with you here. Definitely keep involved in their kids lives. You never know. And at the very least they'll have fond memories of your family.

DH's mother had her kids go to a Jewish school even though they were "traditional" and all of her kids who went to that school are frum now. I have much hakaras hatov for that school (even though ironically if we lived in that town we would send our kids elsewhere as it's a bit modern)

(Please excuse me posting anonymous; my DH is very private)

amother

Wed, May 16 2007, 2:41 pm

last amother here.

Btw I re-read your post. You have to teach people at their level so you teaching them all the kabbalistic meanings of Lag b'Omer isn't so useful to them if they don't have the background. It's like teaching college physics to a four year old.

Keep trying though. Hatzlacha! You have a lot of power just being yourself.

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cdawnr

Wed, May 16 2007, 3:36 pm

Of course it isn't about them liking you or not liking you...but the truth is that for some people, esp people who don't even know they are searching, need to just be drawn into your life and see you as a role model. All kiruv does not have to be with a big read "hey I am teching you something sign."

Smile

Emuna

Wed, May 16 2007, 5:01 pm

Hmm, that's true cdawnr. Marion - thanks for putting me on the spot. It's good practice. I wish I weren't running out the door. I could say something about Lag B'Omer as a two-fold: yahrtzeit of the Rashbi and simcha over R Akiva's students stopping dying. Pshat Exclamation

greenfire

Wed, May 16 2007, 5:20 pm

so you are saying here that you do not even wish to be friends with them ... you are just trying to make them believe what you believe ...

my suggestion to you, would be to firstly be their friend - anybody in their right mind can tell when their is an ulterior motive in a relationship

Last edited by greenfire on Wed, May 16 2007, 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

healthymama

Wed, May 16 2007, 5:25 pm

Quote:

That's not the point. The point is to turn them on to Torah Judaism when they believe they have the "perfect" Judaism (and happy, stable families, etc.)

People rarely have the perfect lives you think they do. Regardless of their frumkeit level, they usually have plenty of their own issues. If you want to influence them, just be a real friend and show them your own life as an example.

LubavitchLeah

Wed, May 16 2007, 5:32 pm

Personaly for me the kabbalistic connections to "why" we do things or our Chagim, excite me and motivate me. Infact growing up more modern with a Litvish touch I never connected deep down with alot of Halachos, went through motions etc etc. It was only after the mystical explanations were studied did it all connect and motivate me to further observance etc.
My sister on the other hand would connnect more like Marion , with concrete halachos etc etc. So it depends on the people involved. My advice is to simply start with warmth, shabbosdik feel, family life etc etc..let them experience the beauty of kadusha in your home. Not intellectualise anything yet. Be slow, warm, open, inviting and eventualy the content can seep through.

Emuna

Wed, May 16 2007, 8:24 pm

Great advice Lubavitch Leah Salut

Healthymama, seriously I know people who have very stable, loving, amazing lives with very close, tight-knit families. I'm not just saying that. I know it sounds hard to believe and not the norm, but I'm telling you I've seen it and I'm around these people quite a bit lately. It's almost annoying how perfect their lives are (but of course we wish the best for every Jew). These are the hardest people to reach yiddishkeitwise because there is so little missing from their lives.

gryp

Wed, May 16 2007, 8:37 pm

Emuna, I think greenfire is absolutely correct!
I am a little stunned to hear that your shlichus is more about mekarev'ing them than about being their friends. Shlichus must be done with the ultimate level of Ahavas Yisroel!

Quote:

but remember, I'm not talking about whether or not they like me. That's not the point.

Yes it is!
You need to bridge the gap between you and them with friendship and Ahavas Yisroel! They need to be able to relate to you as a normal person JUST LIKE THEM in order to come to terms with accepting Mitzvos upon themselves.

I am sorry if this comes across as harsh, I truly do not mean it to be. This point needs to come across clearly. It is an absolute necessity that you influence people ONLY out of Ahavas Yisroel, and not with an ulterior motive of just Mekarev'ing them. Relax, invite them over, give them the opportunity to do a mitzvah in your house, and Give Give Give.

You want to get through to them? BE THEIR FRIEND, and a REAL one.