About Bribes and Rewards

Motek

Mon, Oct 11 2004, 1:27 pm

The Rebbe tells the story about the Rebbe Rashab (5th Lubavitcher Rebbe) as a child aged four or five, crying and asking why Hashem didn't reveal Himself to him as He did to Avrohom (see Hayom Yom for 9 Cheshvan).

the Rebbe said the most astonishing thing about this story which I'll paraphrase from the sicha (You can look it up in Likkutei Sichos vol. 15, p. 132-133, and vol. 20, p. 66):

that by the Frierdiker Rebbe (6th Lub. Rebbe) publicizing this story, he was giving us a hora'a (direction) in chinuch of little children and how in the story lies (not just a lesson in how to serve Hashem even for ketanim (little kids), but) a CHIDUSH IKRI (major new thing) regarding chinuch:

The Rambam speaks at length about how to teach a katan, that you have to be mezarez (urge him on) him with "b'devarim sh'heim ahuvim etzlo l'katnus shanav ...(with things that are beloved to him, appropriate for his young age) ... like - read and I'll give you nuts etc." for "because of his tender years and weak intellect, he doesn't understand the advantage of that good thing."

And here we're saying that a child should be bothered to the point of tears ... about why Hashem doesn't appear to him, I.e. we must be mechanech a child so that Getlichkeit (G-dliness) is a "part of his life" ("things that are ahuvim etzlo"-beloved to him) ...

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p. 66 of vol. 20 - the Rebbe repeats the story and elaborates on the hora'ah:

This is not a contradiction to the Rambam regarding how to educate a child ... because this incident revealed the derech (approach) in chinuch. Furthermore, it was MECHADESH (innovated) a derech in chinuch (or as Chassidus puts it), it opened a new channel, so that we CAN be mechanech a child, so that Getlichkeit is "devarim ahuvim etzlo," ...

We find this in a number of areas (also in halacha) that NISHTANU HA'TIVIYIM (nature changed).
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The Rebbe said these amazing things about chinuch OVER TWENTY YEARS AGO. I'm not coming here to blame anyone. Chassidim are incredibly busy with the Rebbe's inyanim and don't have the time to be knowledgeable in everything the Rebbe said. I just want people to see:

1) that the Rebbe is saying the Rambam doesn't apply anymore because teva changed (quite a radical statement!)

2) something MOST MECHANCHIM don't know

3) something that should have drastically altered our system of chinuch in school and at home

4) just one piece in the Geula puzzle. Teva changed and therefore even little kids can be educated to prefer Getlichkeit to Tangy Taffy and Gameboys (devarim ha'ahuvim etzlo), when this was NOT THE CASE for thousands of years!

Tefila

Thu, Oct 14 2004, 2:35 pm

I like your post Thanks!

Motek

Sun, Nov 07 2004, 7:08 pm

you're very welcome Smile

the problem is that even Lubavitchers, who you would expect would implement these guidelines in the classroom, aren't! Confused

It's frustrating ...

Tefila

Sun, Nov 07 2004, 7:25 pm

Yep unfortunatley we can't be everyones policeman
Twisted Evil

If I could I would Twisted Evil

But atleast you have brought up the issue here thanks Smile

Motek

Wed, Nov 10 2004, 6:20 pm

A lady told a story today about how she was frantically looking for her glasses and she offered a prize to whoever found it. Her 4 year old grandson said he didn't need a prize and wasn't interested in going to look Confused

Tefila

Wed, Nov 10 2004, 10:35 pm

Motek

Quote:

Her 4 year old grandson said he didn't need a prize and wasn't interested in going to look

what did his mother say, did she know Question

Motek

Thu, Nov 11 2004, 11:03 am

she didn't say ...

when someone (an even older woman) said to this grandmother that it was a teaching moment and she should have said something like: don't you want to make grandma happy or help grandma .. the woman said, she NEEDED HER GLASSES and was not thinking about chinuch at that time!

although I can understand that, we should really be ready to grab all special teaching moments, because otherwise, in the course of busy lives, we can always be too busy ...

Tefila

Thu, Nov 11 2004, 11:09 am

Quote:

although I can understand that, we should really be ready to grab all special teaching moments, because otherwise, in the course of busy lives, we can always be too busy ...

yes I guess you're right ! Smile

hadasa

Thu, Nov 11 2004, 2:34 pm

Motek - I'll try IY"H to look it up in the Sicah later, but does the Rebbe actually say that the Rambam's words no longer apply? Or maybe we should combine both methods?

Motek

Thu, Nov 11 2004, 2:38 pm

yes! it no longer applies bec. teva has changed!
it's unbelievable! (both, the sichos, and that Lub. either don't know it or believe it)

look it up and tell me what you think!

hadasa

Thu, Nov 11 2004, 3:27 pm

I looked up the Sichos, but I don't quite see that the Rebbe is saying that you cannot use Gashmius rewards at all, rather, we should see it as our goal to be Mechanech the child to want G-dliness for its own sake. The Rebbe doesn't say that that is what every child naturally wants, but that we can and should be Mechanech him to want that.

After all, notwithstanding that Hishtanu HaItim, nobody is abolishing the Minhagim of the Areinfirinish like licking honey, etc.

Motek

Thu, Nov 11 2004, 5:37 pm

Quote:

... rather, we should see it as our goal to be Mechanech the child to want G-dliness for its own sake.

much more than that!

the Rebbe is saying, that it USED to be that the way to motivate a child was, as the Rambam says, with things that are beloved to him like nuts etc. but NOW, because things have drastically changed (chidush ikri), G-dliness can be that which is beloved to a child

Quote:

The Rebbe doesn't say that that is what every child naturally wants, but that we can and should be Mechanech him to want that.

right!

but if we offer nosh prizes as motivators, then we are NOT being mechanech them properly

Quote:

After all, notwithstanding that Hishtanu HaItim, nobody is abolishing the Minhagim of the Areinfirinish like licking honey, etc.

right
that minhag is to make a positive association in the child's mind, that Torah is as sweet as honey (as it says in Tehillim).

hadasa

Fri, Nov 12 2004, 12:49 am

Right, so maybe ideally, that should be the purpose of the physical rewards, to associate proper behavior and learning with something positive.

I'm just thinking out loud here Wink

, but it seems to me that there is a fine, but distinct line, and you have to learn how to use rewards properly.

For example, if you say "Bentch nicely, and you'll get a sticker," you are making the child Bentch for the sticker. But if you say, after Bentching, "Wow, you Bentched so nice and clear, I'm sure the Aibishter heard every single word and is very happy, here's a sticker to show how nicely you Bentched," you are teaching the child that the sticker is not the main goal.

I may be wrong, but personally, I can't imagine totally abolishing Gashmius rewards, although I agree that we have to be very careful how we use them.

Motek

Fri, Nov 12 2004, 9:29 am

I agree with you. I would word it:

there is a fine, but distinct line, and you have to learn how to use rewards/acknowlegement properly.

in other words, the Rambam is saying that nosh should be used to motivate the child, to get him to do it, before he does it, "read and I'll give you nuts" as the Rambam writes

the chidush is, we can be mechanech kids so that Elokus is a motivator!

where should/could nosh come into the picture?

not as a motivator but sometimes, to acknowledge what was done, after the fact

Quote:

For example, if you say "Bentch nicely, and you'll get a sticker," you are making the child Bentch for the sticker. But if you say, after Bentching, "Wow, you Bentched so nice and clear, I'm sure the Aibishter heard every single word and is very happy, here's a sticker to show how nicely you Bentched," you are teaching the child that the sticker is not the main goal.

right, but it has to be used sparingly or else it very quickly slides into bentch for the sticker!

and we should be alert to those times when the accomplishment in and of itself was rewarding - like someone told me about her son who stayed dry all week, there was no purpose in giving him a prize, he was pleased with his accomplishment and knew his mother was pleased. Sometimes, giving a prize diminishes that feeling or simply serves no purpose.

gryp

Fri, Nov 12 2004, 9:54 am

what about the kind of reward that is a certificate? like if a child tries very hard for an entire month, he gets a special certificate, or talmid hashavua? this is more long term and there is no actual "prize" so the student isnt really working towards something gasmiyus.

it bothers me when I see a teacher who hands out prizes too freely: you davened nicely once- here is a prize, youre sitting in your seat- hers a prize, your learning chumash- heres a prize,... this is when a prize comes to have no value, and then the teacher is stuck buying more and more sophisticated ones which also come to have no value after a while, and it goes on and on...

Motek

Fri, Nov 12 2004, 10:11 am

certificates - in most schools, everybody gets a chance at being talmid/talmida ha'shavua, so what sense does that make? Rolling Eyes

It's a farce, is it not?

Quote:

... and then the teacher is stuck buying more and more sophisticated ones which also come to have no value after a while, and it goes on and on...

exactly so! BIG PROBLEM
and have you noticed that the prizes are starting out much bigger and more expensive for kids of younger and younger ages?

hadasa

Sat, Nov 13 2004, 1:20 pm

Another thought - maybe the point is to try to use rewards with a spiritual value, like Sforim, a chance to do a special Mitzvah, etc. My son's teacher would reward his students by taking them with him on Mivtzoim.

After all, the Rebbe Rashab would give the Rebbe Rayatz money for Mishnayos, which the Rebbe Rayatz used for a Gemach.

Tefila

Sat, Nov 13 2004, 7:20 pm

Hadassa

Quote:

My son's teacher would reward his students by taking them with him on Mivtzoim

That's an idea...though should'nt these things be done anyway.
P.S. How much tehillim did u get accomplished this week? ( I didn't get much done) Sad

Sun, Nov 14 2004, 12:52 am

I think rewards for the younger kids does work - my son is 6 and in grade 1 - he came home from school with the cheshek award and was so proud. He felt he had something to live up to - kids this age don't notice that most kids get it - they truly feel an inner pride.

As far as stickers are considered, my 4 year old performs miracles for his Morah with the simple use of a sticker chart.

They still get all the religious ramifications of their actions, of making Hashem proud, of fighting their yatzer hora, but the immediate gratification of earning something, is a good motivater too.

Ozmom

Sun, Nov 14 2004, 7:05 am

Motek I totally agree with the whole concept of not having them do the mitzva for the sake of the prize even b4 you braught up the Rebbes Sicha but I don't think Talmid Hashavua is a good example.
The whole point of Talmid Hashavua is an encouragment issue. Its not a prize, and just because all the boys have it at a young age like lets say 6 they don't make that connection.
They are not acutally coming away with something in their hand. ITs recognition of good behaviour, encouragement.
To say if you daven you will get a chocolate- no I don't like that, but to say oh you davened so nicely, heres a stamp on your siddur chart to show how well you davened is encouragement. It means they get to come home and show Mommy and Tatty look how nicely I davened the Rebby gave me a star, look how many stars I got this week, and then they get to see the nachas in their parents eyes and hear their parents say "I'm so proud you davened so nicely all week" and understand, this is a special thing
and then if at the end of it they get a prize. "Betoch sheloi lishmo, bo lishmo" as long as we are focusing on teaching them the spiritual benefits of doing it all.
I believe the greatest motivator for children is showing them our pride in them.