Making a kid a "korbon"

Motek

Mon, Jun 25 2007, 10:44 am

TzenaRena wrote:

of course not.

Okay then, so it does not support the idea of making a child a korbon.

***
What prompted this thread was a story told by a young man who started a yeshiva for 14 year olds who said that since 3 out of 5 of his staff members would be out of town for family simchas, he was afraid that the boys would consider those 3 weeks vacation and so he planned on making a boy a korbon in order to scare the rest of the boys into behaving. He acknowledged that doing this would not be fair.

Fortunately, he did not follow through on his plan, but some people who heard this story were appalled by this. One woman who heard this story was furious that he would consider this. She said it was awful chinuch and modeled the opposite of Ahavas Yisrael.

TzenaRena

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 3:47 pm

Motek wrote:

TzenaRena wrote:

of course not.

Okay then, so it does not support the idea of making a child a korbon.

***
Fortunately, he did not follow through on his plan, but some people who heard this story were appalled by this. One woman who heard this story was furious that he would consider this. She said it was awful chinuch and modeled the opposite of Ahavas Yisrael.

So she should be very glad that he had the honesty to realize it was wrong, and never do it. Why is she appalled? I am appalled that she should take his words out of context, and turn them against him, when he clearly related the anecdote in an exaggerated, humorous vein, making fun of the idea which originally crossed his mind.

Quote:

Sometimes, in order to instill fear into a class, a teacher will make one kid the korbon which means take a kid who isn't even a problem kid, but if he makes one little wrong move he (or she) pounces on him and punishes him severely to make him an example for the rest of the class who are supposed to think, "Oh my gosh! If Rebbi punished X, I'd better toe the line!"

To begin with, if he was going to pick on someone, it would have been IF a known problem student who could be predicted upon to misbehave, would do so. Only THEN he would be used as an example, IF he deserved it. At least that's how I see it.

(My husband taught for years, and you bet there were students who could be "counted upon" to misbehave. My husband used to plan his reactions beforehand, he didn't want his discipline to be spontaneous, angry and ineffective.)

sarahd wrote:

Me too. What kind of mechanech is that? Especially at that age, to make a boy a korban can really turn him off.

The parents of the boys in that Yeshiva are thrilled with the chinuch he is giving, he is actually a very compassionate, caring person. I just spoke to someone yesterday, who told me how great her son is doing there, when he was doing poorly before.

It's just another example of how parents are willing and ready to jump down every teacher's throat and catch them by every nuance of every word.
Sometimes, it's the parents who make a korbon out of the teacher! (Can we start a thread about that too?) And it's a shame that they should do so with davka the people who are making the most difference in helping our youth selflessly!

But in this case, it's not the actual parents of the students in that Yeshiva, who are very happy.

However, he should be more careful next time he speaks to an audience, especially of women not to say things which can get construed wrongly. Men would have taken it differently, guaranteed. Chachomim hizaharu b'divreichem!

Last edited by TzenaRena on Tue, Jun 26 2007, 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 4:17 pm

Same teacher as before.
Funny, I remember a teacher in high school coming in and saying first thing- before we start, three girls are going to leave the room, who will it be? It seems funny, and I don't think it helped the discipline inthe classroom much- but the problem was there was not much order in the classroom to begin with. I wonder now whether the girls who were kicked out (and granted they did misbehave) were really embarassed by this "joke".
The one time it seemed like I was making a korban was when I was given a student towards the end of the year because she was disrupting in the other class so much that there was absolutely no teaching going on. This child would intentionally disrupt, had a lot of emotional and behavioural problems. She was intentionally getting the class riled up. I told her clearly before she joined the class that I would be watching her and if she starts to disrupt she would be sent to the principal because the class must be able to learn. So every time she disrupted she was really challenging me to see if I would follow through. And I did. And of course I had so many conversations with her about how smart she was and that she could do so well if she made that choice. I basically ignored that she wasn't learning much and made sure to follow through with her beviour. And, actually it did work. By the end of the year, by no means was she perfect but she really improved.

Last pt.- all teachers make mistakes, but if you are making a kid a korban, apologise and rethink your strategies.

sarahd

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 4:28 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

sarahd wrote:

Me too. What kind of mechanech is that? Especially at that age, to make a boy a korban can really turn him off.

Oh, so the whole thing was only a joke told in the course of a lecture? Okay. In that case, I apologize, but of course the story wasn't told to us in context.

Mitzvahmom

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 4:43 pm

I found out my daughter was a korbon because I snuck in one day and observed... I was so angry, complained and screamed... But let's face it I am not exactly paying my bills for the school, at least not 100% so my words are not always heard.

B"H this year she had a teacher that knows her, and treated her with respect so she behaved and grew as a student..B"H Smile

btw the same teachers that made my daughter a korbon, tried to make my son one this past year... Problem is, he's too laid back..LOL So they would pick on him, and he would just phase them out and stare into space..LOL Unfortunately his best friend was not so lucky Sad

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Jun 26 2007, 8:15 pm

Quote:

(My husband taught for years, and you bet there were students who could be "counted upon" to misbehave. My husband used to plan his reactions beforehand, he didn't want his discipline to be spontaneous, angry and ineffective.)

I think those two statements you made are two separate things.
In one the teacher is planning to seek out a student who deserves to be punished and in the other your husband is planning on how to deal with a continuous problem.

In your first statement the teacher plans on a student misbehaving and
and in your second, your husband is planning how to deal with a situation.

at least that's the way it sounds to me.

But what I understood from Moteks post was something different entirely
I understood the teacher was planning on taking a normally well behaved kid and picking on them davka so as to instill fear in the other students, which in such a case the student would NOT be deserving of such treatment.

Quote:

Sarahd wrote:

Me too. What kind of mechanech is that? Especially at that age, to make a boy a korban can really turn him off.

Oh so you know the story Motek is speaking of?
Of course if he was speaking to an audience confessing his mistake and explaining why he didn't follow through then it would be wrong for the woman to react that way and take it out of context

Why didn't Motek specify that?

are you sure you are discussing the same story?

Motek

Wed, Jun 27 2007, 6:17 pm

EstiS wrote:

I understood the teacher was planning on taking a normally well behaved kid and picking on them davka so as to instill fear in the other students, which in such a case the student would NOT be deserving of such treatment.

exactly so, which is why he said that what he planned on doing was UNFAIR

Yes, we are discussing the same story and it is astonishing to me that just this week, tzena you started a thread on Chinuch and Responsibility and posted:

Quote:

Why would even someone highly qualified enter the field of chinuch when it's almost inevitable that at one point, a child will suffer from them in some way and possibly go down in Yiddishkiet as a result ?

and then you posted a distorted version of what happened in his defense! Hayitachen?!

Quote:

So she should be very glad that he had the honesty to realize it was wrong, and never do it.

He did not have the honesty to realize he was wrong. He was told by his superior not to attempt it since doing so is detrimental!

Quote:

Why is she appalled?

How come you are NOT appalled when a mechanech was planning on doing something unfair (his word) and harmful to a child?

Quote:

I am appalled that she should take his words out of context, and turn them against him, when he clearly related the anecdote in an exaggerated, humorous vein, making fun of the idea which originally crossed his mind.

It shocks me that in your desire to defend the mechanech you make invalid claims. Nothing was taken out of context. There was nothing exaggerated or humorous about the story. He did not make fun of the original idea. Exclamation

Quote:

Then you don't know what a korbon is (which was apparent when I asked for a Torah source earlier on). See the beginning of this post where I quote EstiS who explained it. That is why the child is called a KORBON, because he is the sacrifice to serve the teacher's needs.

I think that some other posters also misunderstood the idea of a korbon. A korbon is not a child who is picked on. A korbon is not typically a difficult child. A korbon is USED BY THE TEACHER to instill fear in others. It's a kal v'chomer - if SO-AND-SO was punished, and he/she is generally a good student, THEN WE HAD BETTER BEHAVE!

Quote:

The parents of the boys in that Yeshiva are thrilled with the chinuch he is giving, he is actually a very compassionate, caring person.

I have heard positive things about him too and I am sure that he is generally a fine person. That does not change the fact that this was a bad chinuch plan.

And although I like and admire you, I will say that in this instance, it's rather a chutzpa to imply that I'm a foolish woman who misunderstood him and very unpleasant that you jump to assume that parents are looking to "catch" teachers. A very disappointing post all around.

Lechatchila Ariber

Wed, Jun 27 2007, 7:50 pm

Quote:

A korbon is not a child who is picked on.

maybe not. maybe its a different concept...but 'picking' on a student is also bad chinuch

Quote:

And although I like and admire you, I will say that in this instance, it's rather a chutzpa to imply that I'm a foolish woman who misunderstood him and very unpleasant that you jump to assume that parents are looking to "catch" teachers. A very disappointing post all around.

I don't think Tzena is attacking you or implying you are foolish, I think she is referring to the reaction of the woman you mentioned.

amother

Wed, Jun 27 2007, 8:36 pm

As a teacher and a mother I will share the following with you:

1. I have never punished a student who was guilty of nothing. What I do have though, under certain circumstances are warnings, and when someone gets warned, and then they call out, or otherwise misbehave again, they get sent to the principal. End of story. It doesn't matter if she's the best student in the class, it doesn't matter if she's just misbehaving that day. In my class you get one warning, Period.

2. I have been teaching for many years, and this year I had two classes in the same grade that were drastically different. One class had a much higher % of misbehavior than the other. I was the same teacher, did the same things and one class was definitely more challenging than the other class. I would practically do headstands, and still they were obnoxious. I had a parent from that class call and complain that I was being too hard on her daughter, her daughter was an angel and a good student and never would be chutzpahdik, etc. This is a mother who has a good relationship with her daughter, and whose daughter is quite possibly the rudest, most disrespectful girl I've taught in all my years teaching. Everytime I gave a homework assignment that took her daughter more than 15 minutes, the principal got a phone call. This one mother plus the behavior of that one class almost caused me to quit this year.

Mostly, I feel bad for the girls who DO behave and can't follow what the teacher is teaching b/c they can't hear b/c the other girls are too disruptive, or monopolize the teacher's time. Then there are the girls who I call my "tofu" girls. They will behave as the others around them. In the class with the high % of misbehavior, those girls will misbehave, in the class with good behavior they will behave well.

Sometimes I wish I had a tape recorder. I think if the girls heard themselves they wouldn't repeat behavior.

TzenaRena

Thu, Jun 28 2007, 9:32 pm

I have so much to say, but it requires alot of intricate cutting and pasting, and I'd need a degree in computerology for it. Very Happy

firstly, Motek, did you hear a tape of that lecture? Because I maintain that this whole thing is being blown completely out of proportion.(There are certain inaccuracies which bear that out, and I will post them bl"n).

I'm sorry if you take offense at anything I said, but bias toward teachers has been something that bothered me for a long time. And I think this is an extreme case of such bias. The word appalled is probably what ticked me off. Couldn't the lady have said " I don't think I like what I'm hearing, I'd like to hear his explanation", and by all means confront him to explain..

If she is really so intelligent she would know how to give someone (who has proven himself as a terrific mechanech despite his youth, and relative inexperience) the benefit of the doubt, or at least consider what he was trying to convey, instead of getting all caught up in righteous indignation.

Here's how this scenario could be played out: the yungerman could immediately be forced to leave the Yeshiva he founded. A shame that someone who does so much good made the mistake of saying the wrong thing to his audience. But these things happen, yeshivas, especially new upstart ones do close.Then the talmidim would have to return to the way things were till now, when not enough interest in their learning and personal growth was shown, and they were allowed to just drift along. then we would cry that kids are going off the derech!

Generally, as parents, we are never going to be able to control everything that goes on in a classroom, and sometimes it's a good thing that we can't. As Rebbetzin Ruth Sheingarten used to say, Hashem gave the child B"H a set of parents and his teachers, and he needs both. A teacher is not meant to duplicate the role of the parent, the child needs a teacher, not another mother or father.

I think there will always be conflict between parents who don't realize this, with their children's teachers. jmho.

Last edited by TzenaRena on Sat, Jun 30 2007, 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total