encouraging children to develop their talents

timeout

Thu, Jul 07 2005, 5:29 pm

I'd like to put in my two cents and this is definitely just an opinion no Rabbi's or teachers were questioned.

As I'm typeing my husband is avidly listening to the baseball game and my questions to him are just an annoyance.

When my husband was growing up he was in an environment where there was learning and then when he came home from Yeshiva more learning was encouraged till bed.

He definitely will not be continuing this with our children since he has felt how overwhelming this can be for a child of any age. If he would have been a child with a passion for learning and he himself would have been the one wanting to learn 24/7 it would have been a different story but he wasn't.

My husband definitely says Shema with our son learns Aleph Beis
(he's 3-1/2) but he also takes him to the playground bought 2 mitts and a ball to play catch with and will read books like Goodnight Moon when asked.

There's a fine line between encouraging your children to be learners and have Yiras Shamayim and Stifling them that all they want to do is run and it has nothing to do with Chinuch since my in-laws are amazing people my father in law a Rabbi and my mother in law well she's un-explainable just to good and unbeleivably chassidishe to be real.

Motek

Thu, Jul 07 2005, 6:22 pm

timeout wrote:

it has nothing to do with Chinuch since my in-laws are amazing people my father in law a Rabbi and my mother in law well she's un-explainable just to good and unbeleivably chassidishe to be real.

timeout - I am sure your in-laws are the special people you say they are, but at the same time, if your husband felt stifled and unhappy then that wasn't good chinuch.

it's two separate things - 1) being wonderful people 2) being wonderful mechanchim

and I am sure they were wonderful mechanchim in many other ways, though not in this area!

stem

Thu, Jul 07 2005, 6:35 pm

I'm not saying anything. All I know is that sometimes parents make the best possible decisions regarding their children, and the children still feel stifled. I don't think you'll find person anywhere who doesn't have a grudge against his parents for something. It's not for anyone to judge about one aspect of a parent-child relationship unless they have real information. One post from the DIL is not real info to base judgement on, IMO. That's all I'm saying about this.

Last edited by stem on Thu, Jul 07 2005, 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

timeout

Fri, Jul 08 2005, 7:57 am

WOW

All I was trying to show was that not all kids are learners not that my in laws were bad michanchim all my other BIL's and SIL's love to learn it just wasn't for my husband and even if you want your children to be a certain way ie. to be a learner with this being the only goal in life, you have to see each child as an individual and not put pressure where it's not welcome.

Peace Everyone Very Happy

stem

Fri, Jul 08 2005, 8:08 am

I'm glad your husband found his place, and ultimately, that proves that your in-laws did it right!
By the way - my husband is also very into sports. He follows every game in almost every sport, players, stats and teams - but his all-time favorite is baseball. I knew nothing about baseball before I got married, but in recent years, I have found myself getting into it a little. LOL

timeout

Fri, Jul 08 2005, 8:13 am

Uh oh I'm in the same boat my husband is only into baseball he's a Yankee Fanatic he told me when we were dating that he's extremely into baseball but I never realized what it meant till I married him I have yet to listen to a game Very Happy

And yes he found his place and there are many things he does because of my in-laws extremes that are only from his family that I've learned. Between that and my parents laid back atitude we have a good combination.

queen

Fri, Jul 08 2005, 12:07 pm

I have not read this complete thread....

however was just told yesterday about Reb Elya Mair Bloch (Telzer Rosh Yeshiva from Cleveland/originally Lithuania) who passed boys on the street who were upset as their football had just broken/become not useable.... He asked them how much it cost to buy another one, reached into his pocket and handed the boys money to buy another ball.

An example from someone who was all into learning, yet understood the importance of giving children an outlet to breathe from.

Schools are very intense today between hebrew and english studies. Chas V'sholom that our kids should get burnt out from the system due to being stifled and being left no place to breathe.

Make sure your kid studies, does well in school but has an outlet as well. Whether it's via his talents, sports or (monotored) reading.

carrot

Fri, Jul 08 2005, 1:05 pm

Motek wrote:

carrot - I found the wording of your original posts very disturbing and responded in kind, though with restraint. Maybe you didn't mean to be insulting, but your questions and rewording of what I didn't say, was most unfair. And then to have you turn it around and blame me is even more upsetting. I think I am allowed to come to my own defense, and yes, many of your comments attack me and paint me as a fanatic who does not have the best interests of children at heart, someone who is willing to ruin children for my principles.

I'm sorry that I made you feel defensive. I certainly did not mean to attack you personally, I was just explaining my position and why I disagree with your position. in the future if you think that I have reworded what you say unfairly and inaccurately, perhaps you could just state that, and explain why what you are saying is different from what I think you are saying. (maybe we even agree?) in general if you specify what it is that you feel you need to defend yourself from, rather than rolling eyes, making personal comments, etc. I would be only to happy to do my part to keep the bad feelings from escalating.

(if I feel that your position would hurt children, and I say that, it does not mean that I am saying anything about you personally! it is the nature of many topics here that they have to do with the welfare of children. so if by stating my opinion I am disagreeing with you, it is just that, a disagreement, but not a judgment on you or your intentions which I believe are all good.)

Motek

Sun, Jul 10 2005, 8:39 am

re niggunim - it depends where you are coming from

If children are raised on niggunim (and not necessarily Lubavitch niggunim exclusively, but also Modzitz, Skulen, etc.) and not exposed to, or are minimally exposed to, other forms of music, Jewish and secular, they won't know what they are missing.

Those who grew up with classical, rock, folk, etc. music, and those homes that give equal time to Shlock Rock as they do to niggunim, are another story.

In short - the dissatisfaction comes from prior exposure to other forms of music.

Quote:

I know one girl who loved music. when she got married, her husband would only let her listen to niggunim. she found it very depressing.

I hope he made that clear to her before they married as this is no small thing. And if he didn't, then I would suggest that they consult with a third party about it.

motek wrote:

oh, so you're saying that better he should excel in baseball than nothing

carrot wrote:

definitely, yes.

motek wrote:

why limit it to those two choices? Confused

carrot wrote:

I'm not sure what your point is. my point is, the more choices the merrier.

my point is that mechanchim (parents and teachers) should be planting the seeds of love for Torah and Torah study and cultivating it

and that when presenting children with an array of choices outside of Torah, they are, in effect, torpedoing their success in Torah or at the very least, are watering it down

carrot wrote:

I think true art in a way cannot exist with chassidus THE WAY IT IS COMMONLY TAUGHT. (I do think they can go together, but not with some of the common understandings of chassidus.) real art is experiential (the opposite of self-denying bitul), experimental (not concerned with right or wrong), and subjective (the opposite of objective truth.)

what do you mean by "TAUGHT"

it seems to imply that the problem is in the teaching methodology, as opposed to the contents of Chassidic teachings

how would you suggest that bittul, objective right and wrong (which is about Shulchan Aruch not Chassidus), and objective truth be properly taught?

imale

Fri, Jan 27 2006, 5:58 am

I'm having a dilemma right now. Rolling Eyes

I have a six year old son who is very musical and I would love for him to be able to play a musical instrument. Music

My natural instinct would be for him to learn guitar, only problem is I kind of see it leading to musical influences I wouldn't want him into. Do I have to give that up or is there a way to stay "innoccent" while being exposed to some of the worlds greatest talents - sadly none appropriate for us frum jews. Rolling Eyes

MMEC123

Fri, Jan 27 2006, 7:00 am

Find a frum music teacher. DH has always had a strong musical side and one year for a present he was given a keyboard...and he's been playing ever since. He doesn't even own any music books with non-Jewish songs. He has the notes for all different classic and famous and contemporary (I.e. Dveykus, etc.) Jewish songs. If he has a talents- it can be an important "outlet"' for him and it's easy to do it in a "kosher" way!

LubavitchLeah

Fri, Jan 27 2006, 9:25 am

Why can one not use MUSIC to ELEVATE oneself, to bring light into this world! Music is a means of connecting to our essence, to Hashem for many of us. We know that our ancestors used music in the Bais Hamikdash for this purpose surely. I connect through music, it drawsme to tears and I should add I never listen to non jewish/secular music. If one finds an observant male music teacher, since its your son, then violin/piano is a great idea as someone suggested. If he has a natural gift/ a talent than obviously Hashem wants him to use it to connect to yiddishkeit/ to make this world a dwelling place for him. So go for it after discussing it with your Rav perhaps. Obviously it depends alot on the teacher, his direction, I mean if he is into playing secular stuff, I would not go with that.I realise this is a controversial issue and many in my and other communities dont agree with using this talent, since they feel it draws away from Torah learning. MAYBE it can add ? Depending on who teaches, how it is taught and the correct motive to learning.

chanala

Fri, Jan 27 2006, 9:37 am

As someone who was a college music major (and no, I was not religious then), I'd say piano is the way to go. Actually we just started our 6 yo daughter on piano lessons, and I feel she'll have a solid knowledge base. I was a bassoon major, and was required to pass a piano competency exam. I struggled because I'd never had experience with piano, reading several notes at once...

Bach and Mozart et al you have to be careful with FYI, because in that day composers tended to be employed as church musicians, so their compositions were often for the church. I mean, if you're thinking, let's just go to a classical concert someday, you could still be in for a surprise!

FYI, there is a rebbe at my daughter's school who plays guitar, and he has played in groups at school, Chabad, and other events. Your son could end up playing at weddings. There are books out there of Hebrew, Klezmer, Yiddish, Wedding, etc songs. So if he had a frum guitar teacher it would certainly be doable!

Enjoy! Smile