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Training children vs. Waiting until they are grown

 
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jul 04 2007, 5:42 pm
Which do you think is the right parenting style? To train your child day in and day out how to act like a mensch? Or to ignore bad behavior and teach what is right when the child is mature enough to understand?

I encounter both types of parents. I'm one who believes that Chinuch is a day-to-day never ending constant process, and it's a bit hard for me to relate to the other type when I see their children misbehaving on a regular basis and the parents ignore or deny it.

Thoughts?
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chocolate moose




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jul 04 2007, 5:49 pm
I think that manners and such have to be second nature to a person, and to make that so, you have to start as early as possible . . .

Didn't a couple ask the Rebbe something about chinuch for their baby, and he said you're too late? (Meaning they should have started in the womb.)
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greenfire




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jul 04 2007, 5:55 pm
once a habit is formed it is hard to get out of ... so each child must learn on a simple level growing with the growth of the child ... same reason we start chinuch before bar/bas mitzva age ... to ready them ...
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shopaholic




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Jul 04 2007, 6:15 pm
I agree that if you don't teach them from day one, they get into a habit of how to behave & you can't get them out of it when they are 4 or 5 older.
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Motek




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 05 2007, 3:50 pm
GR wrote:
Which do you think is the right parenting style? To train your child day in and day out how to act like a mensch? Or to ignore bad behavior and teach what is right when the child is mature enough to understand?


If you mean the child can do it though he doesn't understand it, then yes, it's good to start young. But sometimes parents impose standards on little children that the children are not ready for.
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TammyTammy




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 05 2007, 3:53 pm
Motek wrote:
GR wrote:
Which do you think is the right parenting style? To train your child day in and day out how to act like a mensch? Or to ignore bad behavior and teach what is right when the child is mature enough to understand?


If you mean the child can do it though he doesn't understand it, then yes, it's good to start young. But sometimes parents impose standards on little children that the children are not ready for.


Agreed. You should always strive to set the highest example and train your children to do the right thing. But you also have to keep in mind that they *are* children and will not always act the way you want them too. Don't jump on them for every misdeed, but make sure that you let them know the right way to act.

Tammy
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Lechatchila Ariber




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Jul 05 2007, 6:23 pm
chocolate moose wrote:
I think that manners and such have to be second nature to a person, and to make that so, you have to start as early as possible . . .


yep

but

Motek wrote:
If you mean the child can do it though he doesn't understand it, then yes, it's good to start young. But sometimes parents impose standards on little children that the children are not ready for.

True too but would you mind providing an example?
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Seraph




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jul 06 2007, 12:41 am
TammyTammy wrote:
Agreed. You should always strive to set the highest example and train your children to do the right thing. But you also have to keep in mind that they *are* children and will not always act the way you want them too. Don't jump on them for every misdeed, but make sure that you let them know the right way to act.

Tammy

I agree 100%. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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1stimer




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jul 06 2007, 2:48 am
chocolate moose wrote:
Didn't a couple ask the Rebbe something about chinuch for their baby, and he said you're too late? (Meaning they should have started in the womb.)


the story is that someone asked the chafetz chaim when to start chinuch, and he answered that you are 20 years too late, meaning that children learn by example and parents first have to be mechanech themselves.
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jul 06 2007, 4:59 am
I really do sometimes wonder- should I bother enforcing a rule such as: No shoes on the furniture or don't wipe your hands on the tablecloth. Is that really something a child needs to learn? By the time he's 15 or so, he definitely won't be sitting with his shoes on the couch, and he'll know that on his own. Does that mean that every time I say: No shoes on the couch, I'm wasting my breath?


What percentage of your parenting time would you say you are disciplining or enforcing rules?
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jul 06 2007, 5:02 am
Quote:
But sometimes parents impose standards on little children that the children are not ready for

What is the fine line between bringing a child up to his potential, and expecting too much of him?

Obviously if the child is unhappy or having meltdowns, that's a clear sign. But if the child is happy and doesn't seem bothered, why not do it?
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mimivan




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jul 06 2007, 5:29 am
[quote="GR"]I really do sometimes wonder- should I bother enforcing a rule such as: No shoes on the furniture or don't wipe your hands on the tablecloth. Is that really something a child needs to learn? By the time he's 15 or so, he definitely won't be sitting with his shoes on the couch, and he'll know that on his own. Does that mean that every time I say: No shoes on the couch, I'm wasting my breath?


What percentage of your parenting time would you say you are disciplining or enforcing rules?[/quote]

Too much...but what can I say? I want my child to be a mentsch iy'h..

Someone posted something on another thread about being selective about "battles" but ensuring those are won easily... I think that's the key...


I also don't like it when other parents (or singles!) are critical of my standards in my own home. I have a very active son, and I let him jump on my sofa. I would never dream of letting him jump on someone else's sofa, but I think sometimes you have to let go in your own home..

Which means you have to watch him like a hawk in another's home

(remember the time my son attacked your plant CM? You were very gracious but I'm still embarrassed )

Sometimes when kids feel hovered over they will love that little taste of freedom...

Let's just say I'm still very much in the learning process.
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Seraph




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jul 06 2007, 5:46 am
GR wrote:
Quote:
But sometimes parents impose standards on little children that the children are not ready for

What is the fine line between bringing a child up to his potential, and expecting too much of him?

Obviously if the child is unhappy or having meltdowns, that's a clear sign. But if the child is happy and doesn't seem bothered, why not do it?

Theres certain ages that kids test your limits and things of the sort, typical two or three year old behavior.
To punish him for that seems wrong to me. You can say "No, dont do that", but to actually punish them is expecting too much of them if they're doing things that are acceptable for kids that age.
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greenfire




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jul 06 2007, 6:39 am
GR wrote:
I really do sometimes wonder- should I bother enforcing a rule such as: No shoes on the furniture or don't wipe your hands on the tablecloth. Is that really something a child needs to learn? By the time he's 15 or so, he definitely won't be sitting with his shoes on the couch, and he'll know that on his own. Does that mean that every time I say: No shoes on the couch, I'm wasting my breath?


What percentage of your parenting time would you say you are disciplining or enforcing rules?


are you kidding GR ... if you don't teach them ... they will be sitting with their shoes on the couch without a care ... and picking their nose ... and wiping their mouth on their sleeves ... heck they sometimes do this anyway even with all the teachings - let alone without it ... you just have to know how to teach without it being a battle and also without expecting what they are not yet capable of ... so I.e. if a 2 year old made a mess with his/her toys, you help him clean up happily and with love and fun - not expect him to know how or to get angry ... it is a learning process ... the same applies for everything ...
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amother






Post  Fri, Jul 06 2007, 9:22 am
GR wrote:
I really do sometimes wonder- should I bother enforcing a rule such as: No shoes on the furniture or don't wipe your hands on the tablecloth. Is that really something a child needs to learn? By the time he's 15 or so, he definitely won't be sitting with his shoes on the couch, and he'll know that on his own. Does that mean that every time I say: No shoes on the couch, I'm wasting my breath?


What percentage of your parenting time would you say you are disciplining or enforcing rules?


I believe R' Yaakov Kamenetsky said (as quoted in his biography by Y. Rosenblum) that you shouldn't punish children for things they will never do when they are older anyway. The story is that there was a man who came over to R"Yaakov to wish him Gut Shabbos, and he told his young song to shake R"Yaakov's hand and the boy refused. The father got very angry/embarassed but R"Yaakov said "DOn't worry. When he will grow up he would be more than happy to shake my hand so why be upset at him now".
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chocolate moose




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Jul 06 2007, 9:38 am
Don't forget the pisgom - Chanch lenaar al pi darkoi -

I know there are some chassidim who don't do anythng until the little boy is after upsherenish, for example, but that's not the way we are mechanceh our kids in Lub.

GR - believe me, my kids know not to eat on the couch for example, but if I'm not home . . . . ooo......
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Atali




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Jul 07 2007, 2:39 am
Quote:
Theres certain ages that kids test your limits and things of the sort, typical two or three year old behavior.
To punish him for that seems wrong to me. You can say "No, dont do that", but to actually punish them is expecting too much of them if they're doing things that are acceptable for kids that age.


umm... a two year old is not likely to stop doing something with just a "no" unless he knows that he could be punished otherwise, at least until they are used to listening to you. Just because something is normal toddler behavior doesn't mean that they can't be taught not to do it.
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gryp




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 08 2007, 10:11 am
Do you really think that the kids whose parents haven't taught him not to wipe his hands on the walls will still do that when they're older? They do learn somewhere along the way not to do that.
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mumoo




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jul 08 2007, 10:43 am
GR wrote:
Do you really think that the kids whose parents haven't taught him not to wipe his hands on the walls will still do that when they're older? They do learn somewhere along the way not to do that.


from where? and with how much embarrassment? and after writing him off as a slob or worse?

there are adult slobs who do wipe their hands on the walls, and leave wet towels on the floor and don't wipe counters, and ........

to EstiS: a two year old should not be required to sit still in shul for 3 hours without disturbing. But a nine year old could. A three year old should not be punished for crying when he is tired or hungry. But a 10 year old should have more control over his responses. A six year old should not be held responsible for watching her 1 yr old sister in the park, but a 12 year old could be asked to.
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