Basar Vichalav for kids

Seraph

Fri, Jul 06 2007, 8:55 am

Whats the general rule with kids and meat and milk?
I mean I wouldn't ever give my kids meat and milk together, because you're not allowed to have hanaa at all from meat and milk, and not even give it to your animals, so kal vachomer your kids.
Not to mention that non kosher is metamtem the neshama.

But how about waiting in between meat and milk? Do you make your kids wait a full 6 hrs (or however long you hold)?
If so, from what age? If not, how long do you make them wait, and from what age?

My freind's husband (who has smicha) said that he won't let their 1 year old have chicken without waiting a full 6 hrs to have his formula, so they're not starting him on chicken yet.
I thought that was a little exagerated.
What do halacha books say?
What do you do?

Ima'la

Fri, Jul 06 2007, 9:07 am

First of all, this is a question for a rav b/c answers might vary.

I would be very surprised if any rav said not to give a baby chicken if it can't wait 6 hrs. for formula. The amount of time we have our children wait increases with age and I don't want to write specific numbers here. For a baby, I wouldn't wait (based on what our rav told us) - I would just make sure it's separate (including cleaning mouth).

Also, our rav told us that one can be more meikil for a picky eater (not our babies, b"H) - get them to eat whatever you can! - than for a good eater who won't suffer by not eating something.

Seraph

Fri, Jul 06 2007, 9:10 am

suomynona wrote:

My husband asked when my son was about a year or so, and was told there's no issue whatsoever. Except mamash eating them together.
I'm very surprised that someone who has smicha learned it that way. Unless he's trying to be more machmir than what he learned.

Well this is an interesting husband... They go according to the rambam with everything. So its possible that thats what the rambam says, and not that he's being more machmir than what he learned.
But I was shocked. Understandably so, no?
The most I've heard people having their kids wait was 3 hrs... And thats when the kids are past gil chinuch.

mummy-bh

Fri, Jul 06 2007, 9:25 am

What do I do? In theory, the kids wait one hour per year of age stating from age 3 (only up to age 6! Wink

)
In practice though, I never give anyone milchigs after flaishigs anyway because I never give meaty lunches, only suppers, during the week. On shabbos,........well somehow it just never happens - there's always something else to eat that it's never an issue.

shalhevet

Fri, Jul 06 2007, 9:33 am

breslov wrote:

suomynona wrote:

This really makes me ill. Exploding anger

They are being machmir (not sure that's even called machmir) on their child's back, and compromising on their child's nutrition. I am willing to put money on it that they never asked a rav.

I know there are different opinions on this - everyone should ask their own rav. Su - our rav also said that there's no reason to wait the full 6 hours before bar/bat-mitzva (though you gradually increase the time, but certainly not as a baby).
Of course mamash giving milk and meat together you don't do at any age.

DefyGravity

Fri, Jul 06 2007, 9:35 am

Re: this statement:
"I mean I wouldn't ever give my kids meat and milk together, because you're not allowed to have hanaa at all from meat and milk, and not even give it to your animals, so kal vachomer your kids.
Not to mention that non kosher is metamtem the neshama."

The issue of hana'ah with basar vechalav is if the meat and milk is really COOKED together or (I think) if an item was soaked in milk for a certain period of time. This doesn't apply to chicken at all. For example: you would actually have to cook ground beef together with cheese in order for it to be problematic.
Unless you're in culinary school, or a chef at a traif restaurant, you're really not going to run into this issue.

cdawnr

Fri, Jul 06 2007, 10:07 am

And gosh, isn't there a better solution, like giving the kid pareve formula...(soy, alementum...)

By 1 it is important that the kid starts to have more variety to his/her diet. And if the kid is ready to get off of formula, then the kid can drink rice or soy milk. We drink rice milk in my house for various reasons (I am the only one who really drinks dairy milk and that is pretty much only during pregnancy)...The rice and the soy milks arenow enriched to give the kid most of what whole milk does, except, I believe, the fat.

So this person has chosen an xtreme position without researching other options.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jul 06 2007, 10:11 am

DefyGravity wrote:

Right because chicken is not meat -- it's a derabanan but not a deoraisa. So even parmesan chicken wouldn't mean you can't get hanoah from it.
You had a good teacher Smile

Breslov, just having semicha (what is his semicha) in, doesn't necessarily mean he should be paskening all his own shailos. My father has semicha, has had for decades, and still asks shailos. I think your friend needs to speak to a rav because this just sounds wrong. Every rav will pasken differently, but to not give your one year old chicken because he will be drinking formula or milk within 6 hours is just not right.

FWIW, I don't let my son eat chicken and drink milk at the same time, but I don't wait either...I let him wash out his mouth with water before he drinks milk if he wants to drink it right away. But I don't make him wait. He's 2.

Helani

Fri, Jul 06 2007, 10:18 am

from children in halacha by R. Simcha Bunim Cohen:

Heathy children:
a. under age of 3 may eat dairy immediately. mouth should be cleaned externally.
b. between 3 and 6 should try to wait one hour.
c. after six should try to wait as long as adult, but under 9 or 10 can be lenient and wait one hour.. child should rinse mouth.

Weaker children:
recite bracha acharonah, clean mouth, and wait one hour.

greenfire

Fri, Jul 06 2007, 10:44 am

I always gave my kids apple juice bottles if they were already eating the chicken ... waited till later about an hour for a milk bottle ... after all if they just ate they typically did not need to have milk ...

one kid however inevitably always found her way away from a meaty meal to find something yummy and milky ... go figure ...

nylon

Sun, Jul 08 2007, 5:23 pm

cdawnr wrote:

And gosh, isn't there a better solution, like giving the kid pareve formula...(soy, alementum...)

By 1 it is important that the kid starts to have more variety to his/her diet. And if the kid is ready to get off of formula, then the kid can drink rice or soy milk. We drink rice milk in my house for various reasons (I am the only one who really drinks dairy milk and that is pretty much only during pregnancy)...The rice and the soy milks are now enriched to give the kid most of what whole milk does, except, I believe, the fat.

So this person has chosen an xtreme position without researching other options.

This is not a good idea. First, a baby should have cows milk formula unless their doctor says otherwise. Soya may not be so good for children because of phytoestrogens and other things.

Also, kids NEED the fat--they should not be having rice milk.

I've always heard that you can be lenient with children (especially babies) but there are many positions on exactly how to do it. I've never heard that a baby has to wait 6 hours!! They NEED their milk.

Marion

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 5:05 am

For my son (and we did not ask), we give him either very diluted juice or just water with a meat meal. We have a separate sippy cup (that we don't wash in our regular sink) for that questionable inbetween time, although we do try not to give him milk right after. He doesn't seem to need it and is happy drinking the water. If he needed it, or we had instructions from a doctor to do differently, we would ask the shaila.

BinahYeteirah

Mon, Jul 09 2007, 8:40 am

We wait a long time between milk and meat even for very little kids at my house. I'm not machmir to the minute about it; in fact, I know it is not required until kids are older. Our diet includes only small amounts of meat (maybe 1-3 times per week) and we include lots of calcium sources besides dairy in our diet, so this is easy for us. I also nurse my kids for a long time, so there is never any issue of a child needing a milchig bottle/cup anytime close to a meat meal. Since our diet and long-term nursing means that everyone will have good nutrition even waiting 6 hours between milchigs and fleshigs, I find it simpler and better for everyone to wait. If I felt that this was interfering with good nutrition, I wouldn't continue this way. For the most part, no one does any actual waiting anyway. Usually fleshigs are at nighttime meals (other than on Shabbos) and there is no time to want or need milchigs before bed.