Basar Vichalav for kids

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chocolate moose

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 10:58 am

TzenaRena wrote:

{talking about general waiting times, not babies.)

I guess we never ate much fleishigs; I never had a problem waiting the 6 hours with my kids . . . .

greenfire

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 11:36 am

mi d'orasisa - cannot cook meat and milk together and cold you could eat one after the other
mi d'rabanan - you have to wait and tosfos says it is only 1 hour - but minhag yisroel has become to wait 6
not negating minhag yisroel torah hei - for a kid who can even eat treif - it is only mitzad chinuch that he waits at all ...

btw - the next time you see someone missing z'man krias shema - that is a d'oraisa and see if they go as crazy about the waiting 6 hours which is only a minhag ... What

TzenaRena

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 1:00 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

TzenaRena wrote:

{talking about general waiting times, not babies.)

I guess we never ate much fleishigs; I never had a problem waiting the 6 hours with my kids . . . .

me neither. Just for all those who wait in the wings to shout neglect and so on, I'm not discussing very young children. It seems that there's a general laxity, as usual people saying, well if so and so on imamother brings an opinion that you don't even have to wait, then why not? It's "only" a minhag!

So I brought a proof that it's much more than "only" a minhag. It's actual issur of Basar b'cholov.

greenfire wrote:

mi d'rabanan - you have to wait and tosfos says it is only 1 hour - but minhag yisroel has become to wait 6

btw - the next time you see someone missing z'man krias shema - that is a d'oraisa and see if they go as crazy about the waiting 6 hours which is only a minhag ...

Green, if you ever learned the sicha in the Haggadah why we say the question of Matbilin first, you wouldn't have that attitude. Minhagim are what defines a Jew, more than mitzvos do! They are what makes you be able to tell at a glance who is Jewish, because they stem from the deepest essence of one's soul, they are the highest, not lowest expression of G-dly connection. (Think of it, a frum Jew wears a yarmulke, and dresses a certain way. It's all minhag.)

That would be if in fact waiting was "only" a minhag.
In actuality though, even if in early generations it was, in our's it is not a "mere" minhag, but halacha The only difference is that for certain particular communities, the halacha is a different waiting time.

MommyLuv

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 2:04 pm

I've been taught that the shorter waiting times for young children aren't due to laxity, but because kids digest food much quicker than adults, so a meat meal that would require 6 hours for an adult to assimilate could take a child much less time....

Anyone heard of this as the reason that kids don't need to wait as long as adults?

In any case, I haven't really had to shorten the waiting time to feed DD, except once or twice in the past....

when she was a really picky eater, she would eat a bite of her chicken and refuse the rest, so I had to feed her something she would actually eat- which is mainly dairy. It felt weird even then, and I wasnt happy about it....but she was still quite young.

She is 2 yrs old now, and eating better BH, so I arrange her meals so that she can wait the proper times that we do.
Besides, like many others have written, we also mostly eat meat only at dinner time, which is followed by bedtime.

Question

yOungM0mmy

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 2:15 pm

shalhevet wrote:

TzenaRena wrote:

shalhevet, although I respect your halachic knowledge, don't you think that's a little extreme what you are saying? Confused

It doesn't have to be a compromise on the child's health, if there is more waiting time.

if it is, it's a different story and we all know we should ask a Rav, and act accordingly.

Tzena, the way you said worked for your family didn't compromise your child's nutrition. breslov said the people she knows don't give a baby chicken so as that he won't have to wait 6 hours. And the amother above implied that people were damaging their child spiritually by not making them wait 6 hours even as a baby.

I want one person to say here (not anonymously) that she/ her h asked a rav and they told them a baby should wait 6 hours! I'm sorry, but NO rav would say such a thing. I think amother's post was much more extreme and it could do immense damage by encouraging people to sacrifice their children's health for something with no halachic basis.
Again I'm not talking about a 2 yr old with some understanding, and different nutritional needs. Of course everyone should ask a rav. I'm talking about babies. (Note also that breslov's acquaintances and the amother mentioned nothing about asking a rav.)

Shalhevet, since you asked, I have heard, in the name of Rabbi Zalman Shimon Dworkin (posek in Lubavitch who has now passed away), that once a child has teeth, he should wait six hours. Some say part of the reason to wait is because meat gets stuck in teeth (same as why we dont eat it on mikvah day), but I guess that would mean once the child has a few teeth already, not just 2 with big gaps in the middle.

Personally, I dont wait six hours, never really measured how long I make DS wait - he is 1 year old. But meat is usually supper, and I nursed, and you can always find a balanced, nutritious meal that is parev if lunch is meat.

mimivan

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 2:22 pm

miriamnechama wrote:

I wa discussing this once with a friend.

1 all my familly in holland wait 1 hour only, between meat and milk - it the minhag there. my mother also waited 1 hour. my friend quoted a rov many years ago do'nt remember who where and when tha paskened in those days that he didn't have to wait between meat and milk, strange but heard it once.

my 4 year old waits about 3 hours and the elder one wits the full 6 hours. he's almost 8

Do you know the reason for the Dutch Minhag? Is it because the Dutch eat a lot of milchigs? (follow Lubavitch customs, but have Dutch ancestry, so it interests me..not that I"m thinking of switching.. LOL

)

greenfire

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 2:27 pm

hey your paskening only lubavitch ... what about the other minhagim ... for others their minhag is what counts ... not your minhag - some of whom wait 3 hours and 1 bet milk to meat ... and I am just so curious if one goes to the same great lengths for other mitzvos and minhagim vs ... d'oraisa ...

miriamnechama

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 2:30 pm

mimivan I don't really know, probably some dutch ancetry from years back, it's definately not lubab all I know is my familly does that. come to think of it I think germany might also do that. if you want I can find out for you.

btw it might be todo with thathe dutch eat alot of milky, they do eat alot of milky stuff, well all the cakes my aunts bake are milky, not tha I go there anymore. they have some very good cheese, dutch gouda is delicious and maybe the best!!

shalhevet

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 2:39 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

greenfire wrote:

Minhagim are very important. But sorry, TR, mitzvot midoraisa are much more important.
Did you understand the point greenfire was even making? If we go back to the original question we are talking about zealous parents deciding that babies should not be getting proper nutrition because of them 'going crazy about waiting 6 hours'.

It is craziness because it is not reflected in the halacha. In halacha there is no reason to stop a child doing an issur (eg playing with a toy that has a light on on Shabbos) until they reach the age of some understanding (around 2/3). Positive mitzvos (making kiddush, eating matza on Seder night, taking arba minim, sleeping in the sukka, wearing tzitzit, putting on tefillin etc) each have a time recommended by halacha, usually (except tefillin) when the child is physically able to do the mitzva.

The reason we are makpid on kosher food from birth is because of the spiritual effect on the child's neshama, not because they are not allowed to do an issur. Eating treif has such a bad effect. But it is extremely relevant to the discussion here that waiting after meat is a minhag Yisroel and not a halacha midoraisa. We don't give even a tiny baby milk and meat together because it is a Torah issur and affects their neshomo. But there is no logic in making them wait 6 hours at a time when for them 6 hours has as much meaning as 6 minutes or 6 years. There is no advantage to their neshomo and there is no issue of chinuch. When a child is old enough to begin to understand (and for sure everyone should ask a rav what age that is and how to be mechanech) then there is clearly a chinuch issue.

The only reason we do certain things for babies and toddlers is for the kedusha for their neshomos, and we have been told which things do so (eg avoiding non-kosher food, washing negel vasser in the morning, covering a boy's head etc - each person according to their rav). There is no issue of chinuch at this stage (apart from general chinuch for yiras shamayim and good middos).

I find your comment, TR, particularly troubling in the light of various groups here and in rl saying that they don't have to keep certain halachos midoraisa or midrabbanan, and then giving whole droshos on the importance of minhag. If someone is makpid on all the halachos and minhagim that is wonderful and I'm not trying, ch"v, to devalue the importance of Toras Imecha - the minhagim; just to remember that a mitzva midoraisa is yet more important.

Last edited by shalhevet on Sun, Jul 15 2007, 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

TzenaRena

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 2:54 pm

Quote:

find your comment, TR, particularly troubling in the light of various groups here and in rl saying that they don't have to keep halachos midoraisa or midrabbanan,

Did I say that? Scratching Head

BTW, the term for the Halachos we are discussing is Basar BeCholov.

As in BaChalev Imo. (check it out in the Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah also Kitzur SA, 46:5)

Last edited by TzenaRena on Sun, Jul 15 2007, 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

shalhevet

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 2:57 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

Quote:

find your comment, TR, particularly troubling in the light of various groups here and in rl saying that they don't have to keep halachos midoraisa or midrabbanan,

Did I say that? Scratching Head

Sorry, as you were writing that I was re-reading my comment and I edited it to say certain halachos (which is what I meant). No, I really don't remember if you personally said that, but it has been said on this board.

greenfire

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 3:01 pm

what shalhevet said ... ditto ...

time to edit our posts so that nobody knows how rude and judgemental we are ... so ... I guess I will too ... Twisted Evil

gryp

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 6:27 pm

Quote:

It is craziness because it is not reflected in the halacha. In halacha there is no reason to stop a child doing an issur (eg playing with a toy that has a light on on Shabbos) until they reach the age of some understanding (around 2/3). Positive mitzvos (making kiddush, eating matza on Seder night, taking arba minim, sleeping in the sukka, wearing tzitzit, putting on tefillin etc) each have a time recommended by halacha, usually (except tefillin) when the child is physically able to do the mitzva.

Perhaps you don't hold this way, but there is more to Chinuch than just the child being able to understand what's going on. Do you say Modeh Ani and Shema with your newborns, for example? Everything a child does and sees affects them somehow even if they don't comprehend it at the time.

Quote:

That's interesting. When I asked my Kashrus Rav Smile

how long I should wait with my kids, he brought up this point. I didn't know it was from Rov Dvorkin a"h, but that's part of the reason why I want to be strict with this.

As far as Minhagim go, we know that Minhag backwards is Gehinnom. A minhag is not something to be taken lightly.

greenfire

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 8:33 pm

GR wrote:

As far as Minhagim go, we know that Minhag backwards is Gehinnom. A minhag is not something to be taken lightly.

there are still different minhagim ... not everybody is going to follow the same ones ... so "gehinnom" is a bit much - cause your minhagim are not mine doesn't mean I will be going anywhere soon ... Twisted Evil

btw - didn't you just ask why people go off the derech ...

gryp

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 9:14 pm

The Gehinnom applies to a person who drops his own minhagim, not towards a person who doesn't do everyone else's minhagim obviously.

Mama Bear

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 9:44 pm

yOungM0mmy wrote:

perhaps when a child is really eating large pieces of chicken, not the puree anymore, AND they dont need milk/formula every 4-5 hours etc for their nutrition (I.e. theyre over a year old) then you can wait six hours. BUT until they have no concept or understanding, I dont see why you have to make a kid wait the full six hours! A chid who is too young to fast on tisha b'av night , in my opinion, is too young to wait 6 hours. My son eats cholent on shabbos afternoon after his nap (about 5 p.m.) 4 hours later at about 9, my parents grand children all eat milchig ice cream. How can I explain to a 23 month old that 'you cant have ice cream now, you had cholent a few hours ago'? He has no memory like that. It's hard enough when he cries Friday night that I should put on a tape, he can only fall asleep with a tape in teh background... he is still before the age of chinuch.

However, I would not put him to sleep with a milk bottle 2 hours after supper - I can substitute apple juice by now, and thats what I do.

Btw - my family's minhag is to wait 5 hours after chicken and 6 after steak.

miri123

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 10:01 pm

GR wrote:

Quote:

That's interesting. When I asked my Kashrus Rav Smile

how long I should wait with my kids, he brought up this point. I didn't know it was from Rov Dvorkin a"h, but that's part of the reason why I want to be strict with this.

That is interesting a maspiah told me that Rav Dworkin A"H said the child should wait according to his/her age as per 1 yr 1hr increasing every yr until they reach 6 yrs old which is consider the chinuch age and the child
needs to wait a full 6 hrs.
PS I hadn't read all the posts so forgive me for any missunderstanding.

TzenaRena

Sun, Jul 15 2007, 10:59 pm

GR wrote:

The Gehinnom applies to a person who drops his own minhagim, not towards a person who doesn't do everyone else's minhagim obviously.

The adage minhag osiyos gehinnom is quoted by the Tzemach Tzedek, in reference to a "minhag" that people are accustomed to show some hair, which the Tzemach Tzedek proves is assur*, since Se'ar b'isha ervah and therefore he says it cannot be called a minhag, but rather consists of a different kind of "minhag", the type of which spells Gehinom.

This quote he brings down from Shaloh.

Meaning even if a custom is widespread, if it is something which is assur, it is not a proper minhag, but a minhag that spells Gehinnom.

(Shaalos U'Teshuvos Tzemach Tzedek Even Hoezer, Vol. 1, siman 139, 2nd column)
__________________________________________________________

*"....It is found clarified that all are of the opinion like Rashi, that also with some hair that goes out of the tzamas we say that "saar b'isha ervah'. And this is precisely as the words of the Moreh brought by MahaRaM Alshaker , who forbade that minhag because of "hair in a woman is ervah."

and one shouldn't force the meaning of the Mishnah and the Gemara of Shabbos to mean "in the place where they are accustomed not to show the hair at all - it's very farfetched (to say that that's what the Mishna and Gemara mean), since if it depends on minhag, it's not applicable to say "hair in a woman is ervah"....

amother

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 12:32 am

I can find the course but I learned that it DOES affect the neshama

miriamnechama

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 6:41 am

I mentioned it again to a friend of mine and she quoted that in the time of the gemara was a tana who lived in the galil who paskened that he could eat milt with chicken because chicken is derabonon. he did and his followersdid but he said that eveery one should ask their own rov, which also boils down to עשה לך רב and other didn't follow him. we don't remember the name of this tana or which gemara it is brought in.

btw about waiting between milk to meat many hold that one waits 6 hours after eating hard cheese only. I don't know what kind of hard cheese this applies to.

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