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Shtisel - WITH spoilers :) including season 3
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amother




Cobalt
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 10:17 am
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Some thoughts on this last episode...






One other thing about the relationship between Akiva and Rachelli which I think is missing. Remember that when Rachelli proposed herself as a marriage partner for Akiva it was (supposedly) solely for the revacha. She said that after it was settled, the two of them would go their own ways. Akiva agreed. It is clear that marriage is actually very far from bis mind. Then after she has her bout of mania and reveals it to Akiva, suddenly the stakes rise and suddenly Akiva is being pressured to make the marriage permanent. When did that happen?? Why should he suddenly feel that he now has to stay married to Rachelli??
Then they have the final part of the show where they pretend to be a happy couple when Orli comes. Rachelli warns Akiva that she has no interest in any friendly talk. (Why would she say that if Akiva never indicated that he would go there?) They meet at the revacha for the last time and she says, let's go to the beis din asap to take care of the get, and he says ok. They part, but then he says, "wait! let me draw you." Is that code for , wait I really want to stay married to you??
He fails at the first attempt and he goes home, tells his father that Rachelli made an appointment at the beis din. And the next thing we know he is painting her again and then he is moving in with her...
These two were playing games all along. The problem I'm having is that we dont see any hint of when the play turned into an expectation of it being real. Certainly, Akiva never meant for it to be real.
Of course, us, the viewers were rooting for Akiva to wake up and realize that Rachelli wants him and would be amazing for him. But really, he never let on to her that he would want that...but she seems to have that expectation , even though she was the one who proposed a pretend marriage.


I think he started to love her when she showed up in the wedding dress, and then he planned on going to Europe with her, right??
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Another mom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 10:24 am
etky wrote:
Not only is it nuts - it's also a deeply problematic endeavor to embark on from a hashkafic and halachic POV. It's inherently un-Jewish to risk the mother's life in this way and no rav/posek would countenance it.
It seems so ridiculous to me that she backed out of the surrogacy situation because she couldn't deal with the halachic ambiguity yet she's Ok with basically committing suicide in order to try to give birth.

My thoughts, too! And that Chanina was Ok with this as opposed to surrogacy, but then again it was bide'eved for him
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amother




White
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 12:10 pm
Another mom wrote:
My thoughts, too! And that Chanina was Ok with this as opposed to surrogacy, but then again it was bide'eved for him


Chanina wasn't ok with this - it was presented as a fact to him once his wife was already way into his pregnancy ( I can't see how she hid it for about 6 months, but hey....)

There wasn't much he could do at that point. He debated pressuring her into an abortion, but was convinced otherwise by the 'one in a thousand' chance. He probably realized that there was no chance she would abort anyway.

HE is the halachic stickler, not Ruchami.
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amother




Amethyst
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 2:21 pm
Can someone explain the scene towards the end of season 1 with Ruchami sneaking out in middle of the night with the posters of her father.
What was the pail with flour for?
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amother




Seashell
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 2:24 pm
She was using it as a glue, she wanted to hang up posters around the neighborhood to say that her father was a rasha and everyone should know.
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amother




Amethyst
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 2:27 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
She was using it as a glue, she wanted to hang up posters around the neighborhood to say that her father was a rasha and everyone should know.


Thanks
I got the part about the posters but not about the pail and flour.
Is that really how they hang posters in Jerusalem?
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amother




Seashell
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 2:37 pm
amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:
Thanks
I got the part about the posters but not about the pail and flour.
Is that really how they hang posters in Jerusalem?


No idea. I think they try to make everything seem more old fashioned then it is in real life to show how backwards we are but don't know about this particular point.
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etky




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 4:09 pm
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Great point!
But really it's not that SHE couldn't deal with the halachic ambiguity, rather she knew the Child would never be 100% kosher for Chanina. She couldn't deal with bringing a child into the world that would always be "tainted" in her husband's eyes, so instead she is ok with possibly being lost to her husband forever.


Yes, she couldn't deal with her husband's discomfiture with the questionable halachic standing of the future child born from surrogacy.
So how does it make sense that she's planning to probably die giving birth and leave her husband with a child who is a perpetual reminder of her mother's shocking disregard for her own life and her decision to go against the most basic precepts that inform halacha on these matters?
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 4:41 pm
etky wrote:
Yes, she couldn't deal with her husband's discomfiture with the questionable halachic standing of the future child born from surrogacy.
So how does it make sense that she's planning to probably die giving birth and leave her husband with a child who is a perpetual reminder of her mother's shocking disregard for her own life and her decision to go against the most basic precepts that inform halacha on these matters?


I really think that many people will, at times, do really irrational things out of desperation. Things that make no sense, but at the time, it makes sense to the person. Ruchami knew there was a chance she would live. And she knew life was not worth living without a child. And she saw that Chanina would never feel b'shalom about a surrogate child. So she just made the "logical" conclusion that she has nothing to lose. Because if she loses her life trying, at least she doesnt have to face waking up every day to the reality of bare arms.
We should never know from such a feeling. But Chazal say that a childless person is considered like dead.
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 4:44 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
No idea. I think they try to make everything seem more old fashioned then it is in real life to show how backwards we are but don't know about this particular point.


Ruchami was just a 15 year old girl who wanted to hang posters. So even if that's how she did it, doesnt mean that's how professionals do it.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 4:48 pm
heidi wrote:
I think Lipa's spirit was squashed by Gitty from the minute they got married and she understood that he wasn't going to be staying in learning. She's spiteful, dismissive, puts him down constantly. Of course he ran away. And then realized that he'd never see his kids again. So he came back. Trying to make the best of the lousy hand he's been dealt.


I've been rewatching this series, and going back to the initial meeting between Lipa and Gitty. The clues are all there. He's a romantic, kind, sensitive person who isn't the status quo. He sees nothing wrong with having a car as a bachur, driving, taking a girl out for a romantic ride, etc.

She's been raised in the shadow of her father, and she was told by her parents that this man is not frum enough for her. She knows this is true, but is drawn to his kindness anyway. But she tries to break it off numerous times, telling him that he's too off-the-beaten path for her.

(This sounds like the opening to a movie. HE'S a rebel with a heart of gold. SHE'S a conformist looking for love. WHAT will happen when these two meet?! Prepare for the romeo and juliet story with a twist on the NEXT SHTISEL!)

Anyway, she told him on the date that she doesn't approve of his behaviors, and he insists that there's something between them. Her personality didn't suddenly change, and neither did his. But they were mismatched, and they kinda fumbled their way along without any therapy, or work about their fundamental differences and appreciating how it made each of them better people. It came to a head when he couldn't handle it and left, thinking that he was constantly rejected for who he was as a person, and she was left alone. The fact that both of them worked on themselves and made things work again, despite (again) not having any therapy but coming to these conclusions on their own about how to be more tolerant of the other is what makes the story real, and magic.
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 4:51 pm
amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:
I think he started to love her when she showed up in the wedding dress, and then he planned on going to Europe with her, right??


I don't think we have any evidence that he started loving her when she showed up in a gown. We would like to imagine that , but I felt he just got creeped out from it. Also confused about why she would go through the trouble.
Going to St. Petersburg was presented as a cultural trip, and though he was taken aback, he decided to go along for the experience. But I don't think this points to him having any feelings for her in a way that would suggest she would be a marriage partner. Possibly he was feeling something, but he was definitely not in touch with those feelings.
I do think that when he had to describe his feelings to Orli, he was somehow able to access those hidden feelings that even he didnt know were there. I feel like he was just as surprised by what he was saying as Rachelli was.
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amother




White
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 5:11 pm
I think they should have shown more chemistry between Kiva and Rachelli. We were waiting for it, and it just wasn't there.
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etky




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 5:25 pm
amother [ White ] wrote:
I think they should have shown more chemistry between Kiva and Rachelli. We were waiting for it, and it just wasn't there.


I totally agree and that is why I found that story line so unsatisfying.
I feel that kiva was making a pragmatic and compassionate choice but it came across as a pretty joyless one.
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 5:33 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
I've been rewatching this series, and going back to the initial meeting between Lipa and Gitty. The clues are all there. He's a romantic, kind, sensitive person who isn't the status quo. He sees nothing wrong with having a car as a bachur, driving, taking a girl out for a romantic ride, etc.

She's been raised in the shadow of her father, and she was told by her parents that this man is not frum enough for her. She knows this is true, but is drawn to his kindness anyway. But she tries to break it off numerous times, telling him that he's too off-the-beaten path for her.

(This sounds like the opening to a movie. HE'S a rebel with a heart of gold. SHE'S a conformist looking for love. WHAT will happen when these two meet?! Prepare for the romeo and juliet story with a twist on the NEXT SHTISEL!)

Anyway, she told him on the date that she doesn't approve of his behaviors, and he insists that there's something between them. Her personality didn't suddenly change, and neither did his. But they were mismatched, and they kinda fumbled their way along without any therapy, or work about their fundamental differences and appreciating how it made each of them better people. It came to a head when he couldn't handle it and left, thinking that he was constantly rejected for who he was as a person, and she was left alone. The fact that both of them worked on themselves and made things work again, despite (again) not having any therapy but coming to these conclusions on their own about how to be more tolerant of the other is what makes the story real, and magic.


This is very insightful and I agree with most of what you say. The one point I take exception to is the line where you say that it came to a head when he couldn't handle it and left...
I dont think he left her because he couldn't take her behavior.
The way the scenario was presented, he had been working as a shochet far away and he hated being away for so long. He really hoped his father in law would give him a loan so that he could start a business and not have to travel. When his father in law declined, Gitty, ever pragmatic, told him he has no choice but to go. He was so let down that his fatherinkaw wouldn't help him. He left with so much resentment and sadness at his failure to provide for his family that he had a kind of nervous breakdown. When he left, it wasn't with the intention to really leave his way of life. But once he was forced to go abroad, I think something in him snapped and he just acted impulsively. It was his depression that brought him to act that way. Once he fell so low, there was shame and guilt that kept him away further until he finally gathered the courage to contact Gitty.

So. I think there is a huge difference between what Malky's husband did- leaving her deliberately, note and all - and what Lipa did, which is that he was forced to leave and once he was away, he snapped and fell far down. I don't think it was premeditated.
Also, Malky made it sound like she didnt have much of a marriage beforehand, whereas Gitty and Lipa had a functional marriage, despite all their differences.
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 8:03 pm
etky wrote:
I totally agree and that is why I found that story line so unsatisfying.
I feel that kiva was making a pragmatic and compassionate choice but it came across as a pretty joyless one.


Totally agree as well. In the last scene she is crying and just looks needy. She deserves better than that. She deserves a husband who chose her for her and not just because he needs a mother for his daughter and she was convenient enough, or because he pitied her.

Now that the series officially ended, how about we have some fun filling in some missing scenes?
Can you write the dialogue and show how you imagine it happened offscreen?
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Tue, Feb 16 2021, 8:48 pm
I'll start.
Episode 8, at the end..

Akiva finishes his painting.
Akiva: zehu
Rachelli comes around and stares at the painting for a long time as Akiva nervously drums with his fingers.
Rachelli: I don't know what to say...
Akiva says nothing but stares at Rachelli.
Rachelli: It's...beautiful. And also a little scary.
I'm not sure I understand...
Akiva: Rachelli..I need to tell you something. (Clears his throat.) The other night, when the woman from the Revacha was here...I wasnt acting. I meant what I said.
Rachelli:(puts her big eyes on Akiva) Seriously?
Akiva: Seriously. (Long pause) And I know I promised to give you a get. But, Rachelli, if we could turn this act into a real thing, if you would agree to turn this into a real home for me and you and Devorah'le, I would be the happiest man.
Rachelli: (quiet for a long time. Then shakes her head no) Akiva, I cannot live with you and Libby. Libby is still here, with you. It won't work.
The two of them walk out onto the porch, overlooking the flowers.
Akiva: The truth is that Libby has given me the go ahead to build a new life with you. She wants to see us build a home together. She is waiting for us to settle down so she could go to her eternal rest.
Rachelli: How do you know this?
Akiva: (staring at the painting, and then back at Rachelli.) She was our matchmaker, was she not?
Rachelli: (quiet for a long time. Then she smiles through her tears and says Yes.)
Akiva : (smiles.) Rachelli, my life with Libby was destroyed. It almost destroyed me. I had no strength to go on. My life was being consumed by flames. And then through the flames, I saw you. You were there to rescue me. And Devorah'le. And you give me the will and desire to live.
Rachelli: I understand. Because, ironically, when I saw the painting of Libby for the first time, that brought me back from the brink as well and gave me the strength to live.
AKiva and Rachelli smile at each other under the star filled sky. Shtisel music plays.
End of scene


Feel free to improve upon it. I'm not much of a screenwriter, lol!!
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amother




Orange
 

Post Wed, Feb 17 2021, 2:11 am
can someone remind me how akiva and racheli first met? did they have a shidduch date at one point in a previous season? or was it just that she saw the pictures and liked them and bought them the way she presents to akivas father in the last episode?
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Wed, Feb 17 2021, 8:10 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
can someone remind me how akiva and racheli first met? did they have a shidduch date at one point in a previous season? or was it just that she saw the pictures and liked them and bought them the way she presents to akivas father in the last episode?


She saw the pictures from the street and bought them. Akiva did not know who the buyer was, but after they were sold, he regretted it and wanted to cancel the sale. He pressured Kaufman into helping him and Kaufman gave him Rachelli's number . They met in a cafe, where Rachelli told Akiva that she bought the paintings as an investment for her family business. She agreed to return the paintings of Libbi in exchange for other paintings of the same caliber. That's how their relationship started.
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Another mom




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Feb 17 2021, 9:26 am
We only know what she says to Shulum. Nice, Babypink!
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