Help me understand

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 7:11 am

ds is 7 yrs of age. he wets himself all day. he also sometimes poops in his pants. we are working on this and it didnt get resolved yet. unfortunately:( we are going to a special GI in chop.(childrens hospital of philadelphia) but I do think he is capable of keeping himself dry. so I said you know if you want to come out with me tonight then you need to stay dry.(this was after changing clothes and it was about 5 oclock) I was going to leave at 7-8ish. but he was a little wet. at first before I was going to leave I was sure I saw his pants wet. like a ring were it gets wet it was grey pants. a shabbos one. I was taking him to see my mother by a wedding she didnt see him for a while. I should have put him on black ones so noone would see.
then dh told him he needs to go to sleep it was 8 oclock already. and I noticed his underpants were just a little wet. and so I wanted to change my mind. he was crying bitterly. my heart was goingout to him.
but I wanted him to know he cant just wet himself. and then expect to go. he says he could change himself. and it will dry out noone will see. I wasnt sure he wouldnt keep himself dry after that. he doesnt go to the bathroom. he just ignores it. get lazy and doesnt care to be wet. even smelly he doesnt care. hes a normal smart social kid. but something tells me there is more to the story here.
I feel torn like a stupid mother. I should not have done this to him. it wasnt the right time. because I realized he wasnt that wet. I should have let him go. I am so upset that I get so impulsive. I looked at those pants today and I dont see or smell a hint of wetness. how could it be I saw it wet and now its nowhere to be seen?
I should not have listened to dh and taken him. and changed my decision. I regret it.
ok I know I am hitting myself on the head. but this issue has caused such tension between me and ds.
I have had so many embarrassing moments because of this.
I know its not my fault.
please daven that my ds should be healed from this.
every day I send him to school I am afraid he will poop in his pants. he goes to neighbors house and he did that. I was shocked. he never got so far. so I dont let him go to neighbors. but school he has to. ok. I am going on monday to the doctor. please please daven for me and ds he should have none of this anymore. its too painful to deal with an issue that is ongoing so long and is so confusing. that noone was able to solve.

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 7:16 am

have you ever heard of a normal healthy child do this?
what in heavens name is going on with him?\
like he tells me that when he went to the neighbor and pooped he had to go alot of steps and he didnt have enough time. so the doctor reduced his miralax. but its not working cause. sometimes he will go to the bathroom and sometimes not.
I know miralax isnt a good thing but thats what the doctors give for constipation. he gets so backed up from constipation that he becomes backed up and then he loosed control and then everything comes straight out into his pants. this happened when he was 6 yrs old.

the world's best mom

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 9:19 am

I must tell you that your son is not doing this on purpose. He is not trying to embarrass you.

There are two possibilities here. It could be that his accidents are happening because of a physical problem, or it could be psychological. Being shamed, and feeling that you blame him for embarrassing you will not help. It might just make things worse. Don't you think he is embarrassed, even more than you are?

Please find the cause of the problem and get him help, so that it doesn't just get worse.

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 9:41 am

I was told by some professionals that this has some component of behavioral. again I know my child he is not a child thats embarrassed of doing or asking for things from people he hardly knows. he has this in his nature. he is simply not embarrassed of this. he tells me noone in school knows. and he had an episode of total poop and the boys were making fun of him and the rebbe took care of it. but he wasnt bothered by it much. you would think he would be bothered but no. he tells me noone knows his pants are wet. and he has a terrible urine smell when he comes home. he has no issue with it. and its true I dont think the boys care. or they would make fun of him. I would hear about that. like when he pooped.

bottom line is he doesnt care to be wet. even the rashes he gets from it doesnt really bother him that much. sometimes he will mention it. but thats it. if it gets terrible then he will complain. and I told him if you stay dry it wont happen

I cant understand how so many doctors and Gi's I went to and noone seems to figure this out.
I know for fact that there are other kids with wetting their pant. look in imamother. so hes not the only one.
there are times when it would get to anyone. if you were in my shoes you would feel embarrassed too. of course I know that its not totally his fault. if theres something psychological I dont see it. because I have moved and changes yeshivas and its still the same issue. so no I hope he wasnt molested if some of are thinking so. but I dont know how I would figure this out. for now I am going to see a major professional in chop and I will take it from there. btw his behavior is normal. he doesnt act terribly aggressive or anything for me to think he was abused. I hope we can get to the root of this.
for now anyone that has had such an issue please post. if you dont please dont criticize, or give advice. I am sensitive about it and its very painful to me. and no judging as I am judging myself already enough. and dont tell me he was abused. its not what I came here for. thanks for understanding

amother

Mauve

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 9:47 am

It seems to me from what you are describing this is a physical problem.

Constipation causes incontinence. If I understand correctly you said he wets a little at a time. This also seems to be a physical problem.

You need to take your child to a good pediatric GI and a urologist. I can't imagine a 7 year old being to lazy to go to the bathroom unless there are developmental issues.

Call up your doctor in Chop and explain what is going on.

I had a child with constipation a laxative was not the full answer. I had to do enemas to get the body cleaned out to start a normal digestive cycle. Then we trained her to move her bowels at a certain time every day. This worked and the constipation issues went away. This was the advice I used from a pediatric GI (Dr. Keith Benkov at Mt Sinai in Manhattan)

Another thing I would do is give fiber supplements this is better then laxatives because laxatives forces the body to go and there can be an accident vs. fiber it just make the intestine work more efficiently.

Also check if your child has hemorrhoids or fissures because then it is painful to go and he could be holding back because of that. Which causes this whole cycle.

I have to add that the pediatric urologist told me that until the constipation issues go away we can't work on the incontinence.

mummiedearest

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 10:03 am

ok, there are a few things you need to realize here:

1) no, your child is not normal. if he is on miralax, he is constipated on a regular basis. this by itself is not normal. he is wetting himself daily- again, not normal. I speak as a mom of constipated kids with bathroom issues. be aware of his issues and deal with them lovingly.

2) your op is a little foggy on the details, so I'm not sure if you'll get good advice about this particular situation.

I'm going to discuss the miralax issue with you. I have dealt with miralax with all my kids. the dosage definitely matters, but equally important is having a set time of day for the child to sit on the toilet to try to poop. my kids always had a half hour before bedtime to sit. doing this at the same time daily trains the body to release stool regularly. it is so important. get his bowels working on a schedule, he won't have accidents. I know what it's like to worry about this, I've definitely been there myself. the only times my kids did have accidents once they were on a schedule was when they got stomach viruses. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of your involvement beyond giving the child miralax. give it at the same time every day, and make him sit on the toilet at the same time every day. give him books, a video game, let him watch something on a phone or tablet, anything to get him to sit calmly. just do it. you need to hold yourself responsible for this, not him. he's still in learning mode.

as for the wetness: if he won't go himself, again, schedule him when he's home. set a timer and make him try to pee every hour. have him mark down when he's successful, and adjust the schedule so he can go less often. involve yourself. if he's not ready to do this on his own, you need to step in. punishing him for wetting himself is clearly not working. try rewarding him for staying dry. he's old enough to clean up any puddles he makes and to change himself/bathe himself after. encourage good habits by putting him on a schedule.

good luck!

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 10:07 am

mauve amother . at this point its sometimes a little at atime and it can be more . he laid in bed the other day when I sent him to go sleep, and he was awake and just peed in his bed. I had called him out to ask him something and I noticed he was totally wet. I asked him if he just peed in his bed and he said yes. I asked him why he didnt go and he said I had no patience. to me this is somewhat behavioral. other times he tells me he doesnt feel. it .

mummiedearest

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 10:45 am

amother wrote:

amother, did you make sure he went to the toilet before bed?

re: not feeling it-- does he have sensory issues that you are aware of? speak to an OT about this. we have dealt with this as well.

the world's best mom

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 11:15 am

amother wrote:

worlds best mom- dont you think as a mother I am trying to find out what is going on with him? do you know how many doctors I went to? I have tried so many methods. ok we never did invasive testing. only exrays. this new doctor sounds like will be alot more invasive. so I guess I will hold my breath. and hope she comes up with something.

I'm sure you are doing a lot to try to help him. I hope I didn't sound from my previous post as if you weren't doing enough.

The thing that struck me in your OP was that you are punishing him because you feel like he can control himself and just doesn't want to, even though it's embarrassing you. I think it's impossible to deal with the issue patiently and properly if that is your mindset.

Mummydearest had a lot of helpful ideas. I don't think punishment or shaming is the way to go. Rewarding together with scheduling might help.

If you cannot find a way to help him, even after seeing the specialist in CHOP, then maybe you should take him to see a psychologist to see if that is the source of the problem. If his behavior is otherwise fine, then that might be a sign that it is not psychological, although I don't know enough about it to tell you either way.

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 11:35 am

hi I am so impressed byt the responses I have gotten here. it shows that people care. I dont know yet you spent the time erev shabbos to be helpful. look how much chesed klal yisroel does. and anonymoussly! so I will see what I can implement with these ideas. I feel so down now. I need to first feel hopeful again to try these ideas. thanks. for some reason I do think there is some behavioral issues at play here. not saying that there isnt a problem physically.

mummiedearest

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 11:49 am

amother wrote:

amother, I want you to know I know exactly how you feel. it's natural to feel down and worried about this, but once you change your mindset, it will pass. remind yourself regularly that he's not doing it to embarrass you, he's not lazy, he's just unable to do this properly. if it helps you, my older kids have improved significantly and are off miralax for a few years already (by older I mean 8 and 9, not teens). they don't have accidents anymore. really. my youngest just started miralax, but I'm much more relaxed about the issue, having dealt with two other constipated kids. putting them on a schedule makes them more aware of their need to go. be patient, be friendly, accept your son with his issue, and do your part. your part will be hard, annoying, and possibly anxiety-inducing at times, but you will get used to it, and so will he. if there is a behavioral component, you may be able to bypass it by instituting a matter-of-fact attitude and schedule towards bathroom activities. if he says he doesn't have to pee when you tell him to, just tell him that he has to try for 5 minutes. if he succeeds before the end of 5 minutes, he can come out of the bathroom. if not, he has to stay in the whole time. it's not a punishment, it's just a rule.

Miri7

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 12:05 pm

Wow, this sounds really hard. I haven't had similar issues with older children, but did have one son who was frequently constipated as a baby through the preschool years. I did observe that (once he was toilet trained) that when he was constipated he did have more wet accidents. Our pediatrician said the two can be linked.

I don't have much to offer in terms of medical advice or personal experience, but I do hear that you are upset about the way you handled last night.

I've made similar mistakes, and have taken the opportunity to truly apologize to my child. (Which you may have done already). As parents, we sometimes make a decision that we later see as wrong. It's good for the child to see the parent reconsider their actions, and then apologize. This way, the child can see you taking responsibility for your actions, and being open to admitting that you're not right 100% of the time. What a parent says goes 100% of the time, but that doesn't mean we're right 100% of the time. So, I've said to my kids "you know, if faced with that decision today, I think I would handle it differently." It's good for kids to see parents learn and grow.

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Nov 20 2015, 12:26 pm

Hi OP,

While I never had to deal with the particular issue your son has, I have had extensive experience with behavioral and psychological issues with different children of mine. I really think that your son is explaining his peeing on himself with the excuse that he had no patience, simply as a defense mechanism. He very likely has a physical problem that he obviously can't understand. Instead of seeming like a freak who can't control himself he saves face by saying he had no patience to go. 7 yr old boys are a complicated species. This I say from expereince Smile

. Don't believe just because he tells you he had no patience to go that he actually could have gone. In all probability he didn't feel the need. In terms of you and your husband arguing over parenting issues, I have definitely been there. My best advice is to seek professional medical guidance and have them guide you and your husband. If a professional did not tell you that it's behavioral I would hope that your husband will understand not to go the route of punishing
I wish you hatzlacha and brocha, and I hope and pray for your son to have a refua in this matter!

Pooh

Sat, Nov 21 2015, 8:14 pm

I don't have experience w this but my dear friend is going through exactly the same thing, WITH TWO and sometimes three of her kids. I feel horrible because it sounds like a full time job and a very stinky and frustrating one.

She is also seeking medical help this week and I'll let u know what her dr says but from what she so far knows, it's genetic, her own brother wet himself till he was 13! I know this doesn't offer much support but I'm just saying what she told me.

I would like to offer a different approach. I'm taking a positive thinking workshop and in a nutshell the instruction would tell you to say at least three times a day in a Relaxed state:

W hashems help (kid name) is staying dry throughout the day and night.

Or

W hashems help (kid name)s ability to stay dry and clean is improving from day to day

Every time u see success where he stayed dry say tehilim 100 mizmor Letoda

These tools really work and help! Give it a try

Gluck

mummiedearest

Sat, Nov 21 2015, 9:25 pm

amother wrote:

I am totally puzzled why he's not wearing pull-ups, in school at least?

Another thing, if the doctors can't do anything medically is to make him totally responsible for washing his clothing and linens. That will take away the excuse that it's too much trouble and possibly prompt him to make more of an effort.

these kids can often stay dry in school by using the toilet at every recess and lunchtime. some kids automatically hold it in for long periods of time but can't control it once it starts. putting a child that age in a pull up is obvious and embarrassing. it's not necessarily that the kid isn't toilet-trained. the constipation issues often have a psychological component. if the kid can generally stay dry in school but has accidents at home, pull-ups would be a bad idea.

also, making the kid totally responsible for his urine-soaked laundry may be perceived by the kid as a punishment, especially if punishments have already been given for this issue. asking him to help would be ok, and asking him to clean up puddles on the floor would be ok too. offloading laundry onto him is much more harsh. that sounds like, "you can't be bothered to pee in the toilet, so I can't be bothered to take care of you." having him help by putting his laundry in the washing machine can be ok, but it depends on how it's presented. total responsibility? not a good idea.