Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Interesting Discussions
What exactly was given at Sinai? (threads merged)
  Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 7:15 pm
Avigayils wrote:
My personal opinion is that it is not and I believe that if Moshe Rabbeinu were able to walk among us today he would not recognize the Judaism of 2007 as the Torah M'Sinai that he received and I think he would be appalled at the miriads of mutations that have taken place down through the centuries - fences around fences around fences around fences - until it was completely unrecognizeable.


Apparently you are unfamiliar with the Gemara (Menachos 29b) which describes precisely the situation you describe. Moshe was on Har Sinai watching G-d write down the crowns on top of the letters (found in a Sefer Torah). The ensuing dialogue between Moshe and G-d has Moshe asking G-d about the purpose of the crowns, to which G-d answers:

"There will be someone in the future, Akiva ben Yosef is his name, who will learn out from these crowns mounds of halacha."
Moshe asked G-d for a vision of this man, and G-d complied. Moshe sat at the back of a class discoursed by the great Rabbi Akiva, and became faint. What he heard was brilliant, but unfamiliar. However, when one of Rabbi Akiva's students asked about the source of the law, Rebi Akiva answered, "We know this from Moshe at Sinai," at which point, Moshe relaxed.

Do you and Clarissa keep the "mutant" laws of muktza and the thousand other rabbinic fences around the laws of Shabbos? Do you pass things to your husband when you're a nidda?
Back to top

mali




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 25 2007, 7:20 pm
Motek, Thumbs Up
Back to top

Sue DaNym




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 04 2007, 11:52 pm
TammyTammy wrote:
Someone once asked me if I believe in Torah MiSinai.

"Of course not," I responded.



shock shock shock shock shock shock shock
in fact I cant shock enough!

let me make it simple for you. everything we have today the chumash navi ketuvim mishna gemara rishonim achronim all of it was given to moshe on har sinai. thats one of the very foundations of our religion and you say that you dont belive in torah misinai???!!!!

if you open up an artscroll gemara berachos page 5a1 go to note 15 on the bottom where it says taht not only the 10 commandments, but also "the whole of the pentatuch the mishna the prohets and writings and the talmud were all given to moses at sinai."

so yes to answer your question when he was on har sinai moshe got the chumash just as we have it. thats the core of our belief
Back to top

Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 05 2007, 10:25 am
Tammy's reply is shocking, despite the lengthy posts to explain it, because as tzena pointed out, that is the lashon, "Torah Mi'Sinai. "Could be" this and "could be" that, but that doesn't change the lashon.
Back to top

TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 05 2007, 12:07 pm
Sue DaNym wrote:
TammyTammy wrote:
Someone once asked me if I believe in Torah MiSinai.

"Of course not," I responded.



shock shock shock shock shock shock shock
in fact I cant shock enough!

let me make it simple for you. everything we have today the chumash navi ketuvim mishna gemara rishonim achronim all of it was given to moshe on har sinai. thats one of the very foundations of our religion and you say that you dont belive in torah misinai???!!!!


I explained what I meant in the rest of the post, which you conveniently ignored.

Quote:

if you open up an artscroll gemara berachos page 5a1 go to note 15 on the bottom where it says taht not only the 10 commandments, but also "the whole of the pentatuch the mishna the prohets and writings and the talmud were all given to moses at sinai."

so yes to answer your question when he was on har sinai moshe got the chumash just as we have it. thats the core of our belief


As much as I don't like the way you selectively quote me to twist my words well beyond their intended meaning, at least you were the first to give me a straightforward answer to this question. Thank you for that.

Now that you've pointed me to a source that says that Moshe got the entire Chumash, Navi, Mishna and Gemara while on Sinai, please answer my related question, to wit:

If Moshe received the entire Torah (as we have it today) on Sinai, then he (and the rest of K'lal Yisroel) already knew what would happen when they sent the Meraglim into the land. So why did they? Why go through with a plan that you know will fail and will result in forty years of wandering and the deaths of every person in the congregation?

If Moshe had the entire text of the Chumash on Mt. Sinai, why didn't Moshe try to prevent the deaths of his nephews or his own act of hitting the rock, so that he could enter Eretz Yisroel?

If Klal Yisroel already had the entire Torah at the time of Sinai, then why did Korach, Dasan, Aviram and the 250 levi'im rebel? Couldn't they read what would happen to them? Why did Zimri do his deed? Couldn't he see that Pin'chas would eventually kill him for it?

If they had the entire Torah (as we have it) at Sinai, then why did the B'nos Tzelafchad have to make their appeal -- they should have simply pointed Moshe to the relevant text in Parshas Pin'chas. Why did Moshe have any doubt about which death penalty to give the Mekosheh Aitzim? Didn't he read the parsha?

If Klal Yisroel had the entire Navi at Har Sinai (which, according to your quote from Artscroll, they did) then why did they attack Ai when they knew that they would lose because of the sin of Achan? Heck, why did Achan even sin then if he knew he'd be put to death because of it?

In short, if these people had foreknowledge of events that caused them to suffer terrible consequences, then why on earth would they follow through with those actions? It simply makes no sense.

Tammy
Back to top

HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 05 2007, 12:15 pm
TammyTammy wrote:



If Klal Yisroel had the entire Navi at Har Sinai (which, according to your quote from Artscroll, they did) then why did they attack Ai when they knew that they would lose because of the sin of Achan? Heck, why did Achan even sin then if he knew he'd be put to death because of it?

In short, if these people had foreknowledge of events that caused them to suffer terrible consequences, then why on earth would they follow through with those actions? It simply makes no sense.

Tammy


Fiction answers this by basically setting up the situation so that only the action the person saw themselves taking in the future could be taken.

I think this sort of negates free will.

Personally I believe, and was taught, that word for word was not given at Har Sinai, but the structure of how we pasken was. That is what I learned, had learned, all my years in Stern and from various Rabbi's at shul etc.
Back to top

amother


 

Post Mon, Nov 05 2007, 12:20 pm
HindaRochel wrote:

Personally I believe, and was taught, that word for word was not given at Har Sinai, but the structure of how we pasken was. That is what I learned, had learned, all my years in Stern and from various Rabbi's at shul etc.


This makes sense to me.
Back to top

TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 05 2007, 12:48 pm
HindaRochel wrote:

Personally I believe, and was taught, that word for word was not given at Har Sinai, but the structure of how we pasken was. That is what I learned, had learned, all my years in Stern and from various Rabbi's at shul etc.


That's my personal belief too. But it doesn't seem to be Sue's (or Artscroll's). They seem to think that Moshe was handed a complete copy of the Chumash, Navi, Kesuvim, Mishna, Gemara, etc. on Har Sinai.

Tammy
Back to top

TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 3:21 pm
TammyTammy wrote:

Now that you've pointed me to a source that says that Moshe got the entire Chumash, Navi, Mishna and Gemara while on Sinai, please answer my related question, to wit:

If Moshe received the entire Torah (as we have it today) on Sinai, then he (and the rest of K'lal Yisroel) already knew what would happen when they sent the Meraglim into the land. So why did they? Why go through with a plan that you know will fail and will result in forty years of wandering and the deaths of every person in the congregation?

If Moshe had the entire text of the Chumash on Mt. Sinai, why didn't Moshe try to prevent the deaths of his nephews or his own act of hitting the rock, so that he could enter Eretz Yisroel?

If Klal Yisroel already had the entire Torah at the time of Sinai, then why did Korach, Dasan, Aviram and the 250 levi'im rebel? Couldn't they read what would happen to them? Why did Zimri do his deed? Couldn't he see that Pin'chas would eventually kill him for it?

If they had the entire Torah (as we have it) at Sinai, then why did the B'nos Tzelafchad have to make their appeal -- they should have simply pointed Moshe to the relevant text in Parshas Pin'chas. Why did Moshe have any doubt about which death penalty to give the Mekosheh Aitzim? Didn't he read the parsha?

If Klal Yisroel had the entire Navi at Har Sinai (which, according to your quote from Artscroll, they did) then why did they attack Ai when they knew that they would lose because of the sin of Achan? Heck, why did Achan even sin then if he knew he'd be put to death because of it?

In short, if these people had foreknowledge of events that caused them to suffer terrible consequences, then why on earth would they follow through with those actions? It simply makes no sense.

Tammy


Nu, Sue?

Tammy
Back to top

mali




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 5:52 pm
TammyTammy wrote:

If Moshe received the entire Torah (as we have it today) on Sinai, then he (and the rest of K'lal Yisroel) already knew what would happen when they sent the Meraglim into the land.

a - as TR explained earlier, the expression "Torah MiSinai" means that all parts of the Torah are from Hashem, exactly like the Torah which we all agree is from Sinai (and BTW, Tammy, Rashi explicitely writes which parts of the oral Torah were actually given at Sinai, and I've written that earlier in this thread).

b - Moshe knew everything that'll happen to the Jews until the day Moshiach comes (Rashi Dvarim 34,2). He also knew all Chidushei Torah that any student (תלמיד ותיק) will ever come up with. Nowhere does it say that the rest of K'lal Yisroel knew that too. Where did you pick that idea up from?

You can't expect other posters to explain things they never said.
Back to top

TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 5:59 pm
mali wrote:
TammyTammy wrote:

If Moshe received the entire Torah (as we have it today) on Sinai, then he (and the rest of K'lal Yisroel) already knew what would happen when they sent the Meraglim into the land.

a - as TR explained earlier, the expression "Torah MiSinai" means that all parts of the Torah are from Hashem, exactly like the Torah which we all agree is from Sinai (and BTW, Tammy, Rashi explicitely writes which parts of the oral Torah were actually given at Sinai, and I've written that earlier in this thread).


Right. You said it was the sefer habris (that was you, right?) -- which includes everything up to Matan Torah. But if so, then that also includes the pasuk about eating the manna in the Midbar for forty years. If so, then what did Klal Yisroel think when they saw this pasuk (keeping in mind that this was before the Meraglim)?

Quote:

b - Moshe knew everything that'll happen to the Jews until the day Moshiach comes (Rashi Dvarim 34,2). He also knew all Chidushei Torah that any student (תלמיד ותיק) will ever come up with. Nowhere does it say that the rest of K'lal Yisroel knew that too. Where did you pick that idea up from?

You can't expect other posters to explain things they never said.


You mean Moshe received the Torah but kept most of it to himself? That doesn't seem likely to me. Why give it to Moshe if he isn't going to transmit it?

In any event, even if it was only Moshe who knew everything that would happen, why did he hit the rock?
Why did he send the Meraglim?
Why didn't he try to prevent his nephews from dying?
Why didn't he try to head off the incident with Miriam before it turned into a public affair and her being afflicted with Tzara'as?
Why didn't he take any action to try to head off Korach's rebellion?
Why didn't he know what punishment the mekoshesh eitzim got?
Why didn't he know the din that a daughter inherits where there is no son? Why didn't he know about Pesach Sheini?

If you maintain that Moshe received the entire Torah that we now have while physically on Mt. Sinai, then none of the above things should have happened as they actually played out.

Tammy
Back to top

mali




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:10 pm
TammyTammy wrote:
mali wrote:
TammyTammy wrote:

If Moshe received the entire Torah (as we have it today) on Sinai, then he (and the rest of K'lal Yisroel) already knew what would happen when they sent the Meraglim into the land.

a - as TR explained earlier, the expression "Torah MiSinai" means that all parts of the Torah are from Hashem, exactly like the Torah which we all agree is from Sinai (and BTW, Tammy, Rashi explicitely writes which parts of the oral Torah were actually given at Sinai, and I've written that earlier in this thread).


Right. You said it was the sefer habris (that was you, right?) -- which includes everything up to Matan Torah. But if so, then that also includes the pasuk about eating the manna in the Midbar for forty years. If so, then what did Klal Yisroel think when they saw this pasuk (keeping in mind that this was before the Meraglim)?
I've already explained that Rashi doesn't write 'the Torah from Bereishis till B'shalach, but rather - "from B'reishis till Matan Torah", meaning - till the events of Matan Torah
Quote:


Quote:
b - Moshe knew everything that'll happen to the Jews until the day Moshiach comes (Rashi Dvarim 34,2). He also knew all Chidushei Torah that any student (תלמיד ותיק) will ever come up with. Nowhere does it say that the rest of K'lal Yisroel knew that too. Where did you pick that idea up from?

You can't expect other posters to explain things they never said.


You mean Moshe received the Torah but kept most of it to himself? That doesn't seem likely to me. Why give it to Moshe if he isn't going to transmit it?
a - there were many things he taught that were forgotten by his generation and retrieved by the first Shofet - Osniel ben K'naz.
b - he was the greatest of prophets, and not all his prophecies were meant to be shared with the rest of the people.
Quote:
In any event, even if it was only Moshe who knew everything that would happen, why did he hit the rock?
Why did he send the Meraglim?
Why didn't he try to prevent his nephews from dying?
Why didn't he try to head off the incident with Miriam before it turned into a public affair and her being afflicted with Tzara'as?
Why didn't he take any action to try to head off Korach's rebellion?
Why didn't he know what punishment the mekoshesh eitzim got?
Why didn't he know the din that a daughter inherits where there is no son? Why didn't he know about Pesach Sheini?

If you maintain that Moshe received the entire Torah that we now have while physically on Mt. Sinai, then none of the above things should have happened as they actually played out.
Once again:

TzenaRena wrote:
In other words, Torah miSinai means Torah from Hashem, and the Rambam (in his hakdamah to sefer haYad) uses this term in reference to the entire Torah, sheb'ksav and b'al Peh.


Back to the original question and to your first answer. Saying that Torah isn't Mi'Sinai, but rather M'arvos Moav is a cute observation, but not the way our sages phrase it. If someone asks if the entire Torah is from Hashem, word for word, the answer is YES (and in Chazal's Lashon - "Torah Mi'Sinai").
Back to top

TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:17 pm
Quote:
I've already explained that Rashi doesn't write 'the Torah from Bereishis till B'shalach, but rather - "from B'reishis till Matan Torah, meaning - till the events of Matan Torah"


Right, and the parsha of the manna happened *before* Mattan Torah, so it should have been included. If so, what about that one pasuk towards the end?

Quote:
a - there were many things he taught that were forgotten by his generation and retrieved by the first Shofet - Osniel ben K'naz.
b - he was the greatest of prophets, and not all his prophecies were meant to be shared with the rest of the people.


a- If they were forgotten, that implies that they once knew them - hence they were transmitted from Moshe to the people
b- It seems odd to me that Moshe would be given a prophecy and not told to hand it over. What's the point then? Nonetheless, it doesn't matter.

Quote:
In other words, Torah miSinai means Torah from Hashem, and the Rambam (in his hakdamah to sefer haYad) uses this term in reference to the entire Torah, sheb'ksav and b'al Peh.


So, then, just to make sure that we're understanding each other clearly, you are agreeing with me that Torah MiSinai really means "Torah from HaShem" but does not necessarily mean that Moshe received it while physically standing on the mountain -- (I.e. that he might have received portions of it later on). Is that correct?

If so, then Sue (and Artscroll) seem to disagree with you. If it's not correct (and you believe that Moshe got the entire Torah Sheb'skav and Torah SheB'AlPeh while physically on Sinai) then the list of questions I asked above is valid.

So, which is it?

Tammy
Back to top

mali




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:25 pm
TammyTammy wrote:
Quote:
I've already explained that Rashi doesn't write 'the Torah from Bereishis till B'shalach, but rather - "from B'reishis till Matan Torah, meaning - till the events of Matan Torah"


Right, and the parsha of the manna happened *before* Mattan Torah, so it should have been included. If so, what about that one pasuk towards the end?
not only one passuk. look at the end of that chapter. it also discusses the jar Moshe put near the Aron, which obviously didn't either exist.
Quote:

Quote:
a - there were many things he taught that were forgotten by his generation and retrieved by the first Shofet - Osniel ben K'naz.
b - he was the greatest of prophets, and not all his prophecies were meant to be shared with the rest of the people.


a- If they were forgotten, that implies that they once knew them - hence they were transmitted from Moshe to the people
b- It seems odd to me that Moshe would be given a prophecy and not told to hand it over. What's the point then? Nonetheless, it doesn't matter.
a - the teachings of the torah were transmitted, as opposed to:
b - his prophecies, which would take away their freedom of choice, or would discourage them (same idea as yaakov not telling his sons when moshiach will come). besides, seeing eretz yisrael from har nevo, and seeing everything that will be till the end of days was a compensation for him not going into EY, as well as the reason that is stated in Dvarim 34:4 and the rashi there - so he should tell the avos that hashem fulfilled His promise about bringing the jews into EY.
Quote:

Quote:
In other words, Torah miSinai means Torah from Hashem, and the Rambam (in his hakdamah to sefer haYad) uses this term in reference to the entire Torah, sheb'ksav and b'al Peh.


So, then, just to make sure that we're understanding each other clearly, you are agreeing with me that Torah MiSinai really means "Torah from HaShem" but does not necessarily mean that Moshe received it while physically standing on the mountain -- (I.e. that he might have received portions of it later on). Is that correct?

If so, then Sue (and Artscroll) seem to disagree with you. If it's not correct (and you believe that Moshe got the entire Torah Sheb'skav and Torah SheB'AlPeh while physically on Sinai) then the list of questions I asked above is valid.

So, which is it?
my name isn't Sue Smile. if you ask me, all torah laws, written and oral were given on mt. sinai during the 40 days that moshe went up to get the luchos, and the events were recorded only later, after they happened.
Back to top

TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:31 pm
Quote:
not only one passuk. look at the end of that chapter. it also discusses the jar Moshe put near the Aron, which obviously didn't either exist.


You are correct. So either the entire Parsha was written later or else those pesukim were tacked on to the Parsha later.

I think we're beginning to get somewhere. Smile

Quote:
if you ask me, all torah laws, written and oral were given on mt. sinai in the 40 days that moshe went up to get the luchos, and the events were recorded only later, after they happened.


Thanks for clarifying.

However, you can't say that the got ALL the mitzvos (and details thereof) on Mt. Sinai. After all, Moshe didn't know which form of death penalty to give the Mekoshesh. He didn't know that daughters inherit when there are no sons. And it seems that he didn't know about Pesach Sheini either. These mitzvos (or details of the mitzvos) must have been given after Mattan Torah, no?

Tammy
Back to top

mali




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:43 pm
TammyTammy wrote:

However, you can't say that the got ALL the mitzvos (and details thereof) on Mt. Sinai. After all, Moshe didn't know which form of death penalty to give the Mekoshesh. He didn't know that daughters inherit when there are no sons. And it seems that he didn't know about Pesach Sheini either. These mitzvos (or details of the mitzvos) must have been given after Mattan Torah, no?
true, in which case, we'll say that these laws, or rather - applications of the law - were given as the issue came up (they are details of the law and not mitzvos, besides for Pesach Sheini, which is a Mitzva in itself and Rashi explains why it wasn't related like the rest of the Mitzvos: "This portion should really have been said through Moses, like the rest of the Torah, but these people merited that it be said through them, for merit is brought about through the meritorious. - [Sifrei Beha’alothecha 1: 22]"). Meaning, Moshe learnt it, but it wasn't commanded like the rest of the Mitzvos, but rather came from the receivers' side. This still doesn't change the phrase "Torah Mi'Sinai," as explained earlier several times.

If you read the Torah, you see that Moshe taught the Mitzvos to the Jews as they came up. Usually, the Pasuk starts with Hashem telling Moshe to tell the Jews such and such. This doesn't mean that Moshe learnt it only then, but rather, that it was time to give it over to the Jews. He learnt it in 40 days; they learnt it over 40 years.


Last edited by mali on Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

mali




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 6:50 pm
as for B'nos Tzlafchad - look at the rashi in Bamidbar 27:5:
The law eluded him, and here he was punished for crowning himself [with authority] by saying, “and the case that is too difficult for you, bring to me” (Deut. 1:17) (Mid. Tanchuma Pinchas 8). Another interpretation: This passage ought to have been written through Moses, but Zelophehad’s daughters were meritorious, so it was written through them. — [Sanh. 8a]
Back to top

TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:00 pm
OK, at least I can see that we're beginning to agree somewhat (don't get scared).

We seem to agree on the following issues:

1. On Mt. Sinai, Moshe did not receive a copy of the chumash, navi, etc. as we have them today.
2. While on Mt. Sinai, Moshe received most of the mitzvos (and their details), but not all.
3. While on Mt. Sinai, Moshe received portions of the Torah that had historical information up to the time of Mattan Torah. Parshiyos of future events (the Meraglim, his hitting the rock, etc.) were *not given* on Mt. Sinai but were written as they happened and incorporated into the "final" Torah later on.
4. Certain mitzvos (or details) were given later on (when indicated by the text of the Chumash).
5. The portions of Torah SheB'AlPeh that depend on events that did not yet happen were not given to Moshe but were received later -- an example of this would be the Mishnah in Sanhedrin that says the Dor HaMidbar or the Meraglim have no chelek in Olam Habah (since the events that caused them to lose their Olam Habah didn't happen yet).

Am I correct? Do we agree on these points?

Tammy
Back to top

mali




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:12 pm
TammyTammy wrote:
OK, at least I can see that we're beginning to agree somewhat (don't get scared).
why should I get scared?
Quote:
We seem to agree on the following issues:

1. On Mt. Sinai, Moshe did not receive a copy of the chumash, navi, etc. as we have them today.
correct
Quote:
2. While on Mt. Sinai, Moshe received most of the mitzvos (and their details), but not all.
I'd like to look into that a bit further.
Quote:
3. While on Mt. Sinai, Moshe received portions of the Torah that had historical information up to the time of Mattan Torah. Parshiyos of future events (the Meraglim, his hitting the rock, etc.) were *not given* on Mt. Sinai but were written as they happened and incorporated into the "final" Torah later on.
right
Quote:
4. Certain mitzvos (or details) were given later on (when indicated by the text of the Chumash).
most were given only later. as far as moshe knowing them, see my answer to 2.
Quote:
5. The portions of Torah SheB'AlPeh that depend on events that did not yet happen were not given to Moshe but were received later -- an example of this would be the Mishnah in Sanhedrin that says the Dor HaMidbar or the Meraglim have no chelek in Olam Habah (since the events that caused them to lose their Olam Habah didn't happen yet).
in which case, they're just like the portions in the written torah that were not yet known during matan torah (stories).
Quote:
Am I correct? Do we agree on these points?
believe it or not Wink
Back to top

TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2007, 7:17 pm
Thank you, Mali.

Sue, just because Mali and I agree, that doesn't mean you're off the hook. You still have to explain to me your position that Moshe got the entire Chumash, Navi, Kesuvim, Mishna, Gemara, etc. on Mt. Sinai. In short, please answer my questions about how the events I mentioned could have happened as they did if Moshe (and possibly the rest of K'lal Yisroel) knew what was coming.

Tammy
Back to top
Page 5 of 7   Previous  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Next Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Interesting Discussions

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Can Matanot Leivyonim be given…
by amother
6 Mon, Mar 18 2024, 10:53 am View last post
PSA - don't let these MM threads get into your heads! 7 Thu, Mar 07 2024, 10:00 pm View last post
Is it ungrateful to ask H-shem for money if He's given me so
by amother
34 Thu, Mar 07 2024, 4:44 pm View last post
Mount Sinai
by amother
1 Mon, Feb 26 2024, 5:54 pm View last post
United Healthcare & Mt Sinai-Anyone else affected?
by amother
9 Mon, Feb 19 2024, 12:44 pm View last post