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Maya

Mon, Dec 28 2015, 8:23 pm

chany-frum wrote:

totally agree if its just about who wins , and fighting , the children will for sure be hurt

the painful question is if the mom is OTD and really wants to make the kids not religious !

what about the pain of the father & grandparents ,

we all know that having G-d forbid kids OTD is the worst think that can happen to a frum Jewish person

so what about his pain ???????

and what about the fact the she "the mom" is the one that changed the rules in the middle of the game

please address my point ,

People who do this are not thinking of anyone but themselves. If they were, they'd realize that raising a child to become a healthy adult is way way more important than raising a child to become a frum adult.
Fights like this are usually just to spite or take revenge; blaming it on religion is a great way to deflect from the real motives.

And no, having an OTD kid is not the worst thing that can happen to a frum Jew. There are many more tragic things that can unfortunately happen to one's family.

Zehava

Mon, Dec 28 2015, 9:44 pm

I agree with maya. There is no excuse for tearing away a child from a loving devoted parent. Those who do so are monsters, and sometimes abusive.

FUNMOM88

Mon, Dec 28 2015, 9:52 pm

saw the clip plus read the article in this past weeks AMI magazine about yoeli liebowits and interview with Dr. worenklein about parental alienation. It is so so painful & heartbreaking !!

My question is what can we do if we are personally aware of a parent who has brainwshed her children against their father & is not letting him see them? (father is upstanding normal respected community member)-she is alienating the kids as some type of evil revenge when in reality she is only killing her own kids by depriving them of a father..

any ideas????

Mini Cookie

Mon, Dec 28 2015, 10:13 pm

Zehava wrote:

Made me Angry. He has a close relative who is currently being barred from seeing her son, and who's son is being incited against her. His family is actively helping the childs father. The same family who was alienated from their own father. Just saying. Look in your own backyard first.

I dont think it was necessary or appropriate for you to share this information. Contact him directly if this is really making you "angry". Silly to publicize it if you dont know all the details of where he stands in all of this.

Neither do I.

...just sayin

Chloe

Mon, Dec 28 2015, 10:24 pm

chany-frum wrote:

and I can totally understand if a father is afraid if his child will remain frum , not to allow seeing the mother,

after all when they got married was to bring up frum Jewish children

You can't change the rules in the middle of the game

You do NOT disconnect a child from its mother. That rule came way before.

youngishbear

Mon, Dec 28 2015, 10:33 pm

Maya wrote:

I pray that no one ever be in a position to understand the truth of this.

Mama Bear

Mon, Dec 28 2015, 11:34 pm

Yoely has another sister who is OTD and divorced, and she ended up getting custody of her kids (after a long battle; the kids would arrive home to their father and stepmother very confused after every visitation etc.) They are not frum (or marginally frum) today. (I am related to them by marriage). So yes, the mother won; and we lost two beautiful neshamas - but this, too, was bashert. It's a very complicated topic. Sad

HonesttoGod

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 2:43 am

Maya wrote:

There are no subtitles in the video posted and I don't speak Yiddish but Couldn't have said it better! Applause

grace413

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 3:32 am

Maya wrote:

Everything that Maya said but I'll go ahead and spell it out: Having a dead child is a lot worse than having an OTD child.

And why was her post reported?

Butterfly

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 5:14 am

grace413 wrote:

Everything that Maya said but I'll go ahead and spell it out: Having a dead child is a lot worse than having an OTD child.

I agree with the bolded but I'll go ahead and spell my .02 out too:
Two wrongs don't make one right!

Weather dead or off the derech; Both are horrific!

grace413

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 5:15 am

Butterfly wrote:

I agree with the bolded but I'll go ahead and spell my .02 out too:
Two wrongs don't make one right!

Weather dead or off the derech; Both are horrific!

Of course two wrongs don't make a right. But while there's life, there's hope.

Zehava

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 5:32 am

grace413 wrote:

Of course two wrongs don't make a right. But while there's life, there's hope.

So let me get this straight. The only reason a parent would want an otd child alive is because of the "hope" that he might return? Now that is just such a horrific twist from human nature. How do people manage to twist the beautiful maternal instinct like this?

grace413

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 6:40 am

Zehava wrote:

Chas V'Chalila! You totally misunderstood me. Sorry if I was not clear. I was making the point that a dead (or very ill) child is, l'havdil, a much more terrible thing than an OTD child. Butterfly said that both are horrific. I was trying to convey that being OTD is certainly not desirable but on nowhere the same level as a dead child. Not that there is value to an OTD child only because he might come back.

I have an OTD son. I doubt he will ever return to shmirat mitzvot. I still love him very much.

Zehava

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 8:39 am

grace413 wrote:

My apologies embarrassed

sourstix

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 1:03 pm

maya dont say having an otd child isnt the worst thing. maybe not in your eyes, clearly for some pp here it is.

sourstix

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 1:11 pm

I dont think theres a point in arguing what is worse. each one has its challenges. everyone takes things diff. so we shall all agree they are bothe painful. and hopefully this clip has done a thing or two to address those pp not realizing the pain such thing can bring to a child.
dh went through something similar and I can tell you how much pain just from hearing it firsthand. the child looses so much, I am not in the mood of writing it out. I wish someone as mechanchim or someone in the jewish world would work on this.

Butterfly

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 1:47 pm

grace413 wrote:

Everything that Maya said but I'll go ahead and spell it out: Having a dead child is a lot worse than having an OTD child.

Absolutely! And that was why I wrote I agree with the bolded.

Butterfly wrote:

"I agree with the bolded" but I'll go ahead and spell my out my .02 as well:
Two wrongs don't make one right!

grace413 wrote:

Of course two wrongs don't make a right. But while there's life, there's hope.

Absolutely bezr'H! Couldn't agree more !

grace413 wrote:

I have an OTD son. I doubt he will ever return to shmirat mitzvot. I still love him very much.

The love from normal, descent, and caring parents comes natural.
It's deeply in-graded within parents' hearts and souls, and will /should forever be no matter whatever the situation.

God forbid a parent should ever stop loving. Is that even possible??
Or to voluntarily disown one's own flesh and blood, EVER!
Such behavior would be as destructive as murder itself ch'v, IMO.

Grace413 Hug

Please don't give up hope. Hashem is in charge and He could make anything happen.

You just do your hishtadlos; Daven, daven, and daven again.
Talking to Hashem, from within the heart, from within one's thoughts, and in one's very own words, transmits immeasurable values.

Hashem answers ALL prayers even if we don't always, or ever, merit to see it's achievements during our lifetime.
He's got them stacked in His treasure chest and may use it during a later time (one's future generations...)

I had a lovely aunt, a holocaust surviver, who slipped after the war as did many others unfortunately, and went totally OTD. Naturally she married into an OTD.

Their one and only daughter was raised totally secular. She was aware that she was Jewish but didn't know a thing about Judaism. Not about Pesach nor Yom Kippur... (I knew her well then and still keep in contact with her today. She's baalas teshuva today thanks to her son..

Her one and only child, her ben yachid is a frum Orthodox Jew. A yiras Shamayim, observing the Torah to it's fullest. He married a frum 'chassidish' Yerushalmi with tichel and all...
They are raising their beautiful large family in that very same culture that their great grandparents lived by. The very same people who 'davened' for them and for their future generations...

Prayers don't ever get lost!!

Grace413, continue embracing your son with sincere motherly love, daven for his well being, as you seem to be doing, and he will forever love you back. One day imy'H....

grace413

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 2:00 pm

Zehava wrote:

My apologies embarrassed

Glad I could clarify. Don't worry about it.

grace413

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 2:03 pm

Butterfly wrote:

Grace413

Thanks for your kind words. Amen.

oliveoil

Tue, Dec 29 2015, 2:06 pm

Butterfly wrote:

Weather dead or off the derech; Both are horrific!

Talk about generalizing.

Is a healthy, young adult, choosing to live a moral but non-religious life really horrific? (ie. studying, working, travelling, meeting new people, dating freely but not keeping shabbos/kosher etc.) It may not be what the parent wants, but surely horrific is too strong a word.

Or is your frame of reference for "OTD" limited to the "drinking and drugs" stereotype?

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