Sold to the highest bidder?

BeershevaBubby

Tue, Jul 17 2007, 11:05 am

It's common practice, especially during the High Holy Days to auction off the Aliyot for the Torah readings. Some shuls will auction it off every Shabbat.

Can someone please tell me how that is Halachically acceptable? I realize no money changes hands at the time, but there's a level of business going on.

In addition, if I have a public transportation card (like a MetroCard or a punch card or a 'Chodshi-Chofshi') and it has credit on it, it is considered money and is therefore Muktzah to handle or use (say as a bookmark). So how is buying an Aliyah ok?

The shul I used to daven in for Rosh haShanah and Yom Kippur used to have pledge cards on the seats one day Rosh haShanah. You bent down the amount you were going to donate to the shul. While that also bends the rules I think, at least a person isn't 'buying' something for it.

And please don't tell me it's for a Mitzvah. First of all, Aliyot don't HAVE to be sold and second, if one doesn't blow Shofar on Shabbat due to Eruv, then why is selling and buying Aliyot on Shabbat ok 'for a Mitzvah'.

purplegirl

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 6:31 am

Well, I've always thought is was really weird, but I never got around to asking someone the halachic principles behind it. I'm guessing the rest of us silent folks don't know the answer either...

brooklyn

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 7:15 am

I don't have the answer, I also grew up in and still go to a shul where this is done. Maybe it's not considered business but tzedakah? Even in chasidish shuls where I have been to where they don't sell the aliyot, after the aliyah when they make the misheberach there is one that they make where the man pledges money to the shul. I'm not saying that it is correct to do but in some cases on the High Holy Days that is when some of these shuls get the most number of people many of whom don't come during the rest of the year, so maybe that is how they can get pledges to support the shul.

greenfire

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 8:27 am

yes I too always thought it was just not very kovod on shabbos to do this ... hey I think I saw monopoly money and name cards with the guy who sells the aliyas ... how hilarious ... can we even play monopoly on shabbos ... now I am really curious to find some answers ...

justanothermother

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 8:32 am

Taken from http://asimplejew.blogspot.com......html

Quote:

In Tractate Shabbos, page 150a, the holy Amoraim Rav Chisda and Rav Himnuna are uncontested when they say that one is allowed to make calculations for mitvas on Shabbos. Rebbe Elazar is even more specific when he states (ibid.) that one may promise to give charity to a poor person on Shabbos. In other words, even though we're not allowed to mention commercial, monetary, and day-to-day matters on Shabbos (Shulchan Oruch Or Hachaim 107:1), we are allowed to discuss matters of tzedakka on Shabbos, Yom tov, and even Yom Kippur, such as pledging money for the poor or for the upkeep of the shul (ibid., 106:6, see also Rama there).

The Chofetz Chaim adds (ibid., Mishna Brura 27, 33) that one is permitted to earmark/pledge money for charity, and although some poskim object to the sale of aliyas on Shabbos because it resembles bartering and auctioning, while those poskim who permit selling aliyas say that this is totally different from auctioning off "goods", since the money is for the upkeep of the shul, a very big mitzva that's allowed on Shabbos, and concludes that wherever the custom is to auction off the aliyas, it is permissible.

Ruchel

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 9:47 am

In my shul they sell them on yom kippur. I dislike it. The prices can go very high and some people will never afford them although they try every year. It breaks my heart so I boycott. In the fanciest Parisian shuls the first one can be like 100 000 euros!!! shock

It's a shame. G-d doesn't listen better because you bought your alia and you're rich enough to be first to go. Rolling Eyes

I know they need money to build a bigger shul and a community center, and I am happy to help when I am asked for money (they plan to ask 50 euros/month for it, and of course you need to buy places for Kippur, 80 euros a sit if my memory doesn't fail me). I am even happier to give tzedaka. But I don't buy mitzvos.

TzenaRena

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 10:03 am

greenfire wrote:

one should not play monopoly or other such games (fake money) on Shabbos. my source is a column of "ask the Rav", published by women in our community, the questions were presented to and answered by Rabbi Marlow z"l, (and reviewed by him before pub.) ..in Shmiras shabbos Kehilchosoh R. Neuwirth writes "it is well to refrain from games with imitation money." (So although he brings R. SZ Aeurbachs opinion that it's not outright issur because it's not real money, he still concludes that you shouldn't.)

R. Neuwirth also prefaces this chapter (16) by saying that all the dinim about toys and games that he brings are for ages before Bar and Bas Mitzvah, but adults should not play games on Shabbos, but utilize the day in ways of spiritual pleasure.

But for sure in 770, they "sell" Mitzvos on Shabbos Breishis, and there was always bidding for the pessukim of "Atah Hareisoh" on Simchas Torah.