Science vs Torah. And the winner is....

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gryp

Wed, Nov 14 2007, 10:52 am

Quote:

would never invent new interpretations that contradict the literal understanding of Chazal, Rishonim and Acharonim

obviously, because you're not allowed to. That is a set rule in Torah study that can not be crossed.

amother

Wed, Nov 14 2007, 3:27 pm

The following are interesting arguments.

Quote:

There is a famous dispute between the Geonim and Rabenu Tam regarding the time of Tzet HaKochavim - when do the stars come out after sunset. The Geonim said 18 minutes, while Rabeinu Tam said 72 minutes. Most of the Rishonim and Achronim followed Rabeinu Tam. Yet, the Vilna Gaon (1720 -1797) said: "Reality contradicts" Rabeinu Tam, and decided that 18 minutes is the correct time. When "reality contradicts", the scientific reality is stronger than the opinion of the Rabbanim. Practically all of the Jewish world today follows this decision by the Vilna Gaon. High quality kosher supervision of food today is also guided by the same principle - the reality, as determined by technical specialists (based on science), takes precedence over the written words in the literature. It is interesting to note that the same Rabbanim who believe that it is impossible for the religious literature to contain mistakes, are also those who do not recognize the Kashrut of food if its kosher certification ignores scientific facts and is based exclusively on the written words of the Shulchan Aruch.

Would you eat food that requires scientific understanding for its kashrus supervision, yet all the Rav does is rely on the shulchan aruch alone?

Quote:

The time of sunset on Friday evening is critical to the determination of the beginning of Shabbat. How many Rabbis are there in the world today who know how to calculate in advance, based on the Jewish calendar, the correct time of sunset in their own location? Rabbis and non-Rabbis alike, all around the globe, including those who vehemently oppose learning science, all rely on the most advanced scientific calculations which follow the scientific model of the world, when they need to find out the correct time of sunset on Friday evening.

All the calendars in the world printed by Chabad Houses include the candle lighting times calculated based on SCIENCE. I am sure the Rebbe also relied on this SCIENTIFIC calculation.

amother

Wed, Nov 14 2007, 4:03 pm

Here is another one:

Quote:

What is the Jewish view regarding the shape of the earth and the relative movement of the earth and the sun? Sefer HaZohar, in Parashat VaYikra tells us as follows: (literal translation) "In the book of Rav Himnona it explains that the whole settled world spins around in a circle like a sphere. Some people are below and some people are above... and because of that, there is a place in the settled world, when it is light for some it is dark for others. For some it is day and for others it is night. And, there is a place where it is always day and it is never night, except for a very short period of time."

In this description, we see a clear understanding of the fact that the earth is shaped like a sphere and spins around its axis in a 24 hour cycle, as opposed to the theories of the flat earth and the sun orbiting around the earth. We also see an understanding that people live all around the earth and while it is day for those on the side facing the sun, it is night for those who live on the other side away from the sun. Not only that, but as we know today, there is indeed a place (near the poles of the earth) where the day can be very long while the night is very short.

The sun and stars orbiting around the earth is the Greek and the Christian view of the world. This is not, and never was, the Jewish view. In the very first letter published in Igrot Kodesh Vol 1, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, confirmed that the Rambam's model of the world is based on the Greek philosophy, particularly that of Aristotle.

So, the Rebbe himself confirmed that the, so called, "Torah view" today is based on the Greeks, not on Torah. Is this also a "heretical view"?

faigie

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 9:22 am

OK I went to the planetarium. and IMHO both can be right.
in OUR solar system we see the planets revolving around the sun,
BUT the entire universe is crazy vast. so big that one cant even imagine..........
it could be, hypothetically, that ALL OF THAT UNIVERSE, in its perameters,the entire chad gadya, at some snail pace revolves around the earth.
it could be true, and just hasnt been measured yet, because it CANT be measured yet.

Lechatchila Ariber

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 12:12 pm

faigie wrote:

that's exactly the point, that scientifically you can't determine which is revolving around which. its all hypothesis

amother above, if you are going to provide quotes and want to be taken seriously then you need to provide their source and who said them

TzenaRena

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 12:57 pm

amother wrote:

Here is another one:

Quote:

So, the Rebbe himself confirmed that the, so called, "Torah view" today is based on the Greeks, not on Torah. Is this also a "heretical view"?

Are you quoting the article or the Rebbe? In addition, I have seen the Rebbe's explanation about the Rambam's use of Aristotlean thought. I can't look it up now though.

amother

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 2:05 pm

Quoting from the article what the Zohar says about the Jewish view; and quoting from the article the reference to the Rebbe's confirmation of the Greek origin of these theories.

The Rambam himself explained his reliance on the Greeks:

Quoted from the article:

Quote:

The question which most rabbis struggle with is, why did the Talmud and the Rambam (1138-1204) present the Greek theory, ignoring the Jewish knowledge? The answer is given by the Rambam in Sefer Zmanim, Hilchot Kiddush HaChodesh, at the end of Ch. 17: (literal translation) "And the reason for all these calculations... and how do we know each of these things, and the proof for each and every thing, this is the wisdom of periods and calculations about which the Greek scholars composed many books, and these are the books which are now available to the scholars. But, the books composed by the Jewish scholars from the tribe of Yissachar at the times of the prophets, did not reach our hands."

The Rebbe also refers to this statement by the Rambam, in Igrot Kodesh #1, Vol.1

amother

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 2:29 pm

Didn't I read somewhere once that all the Greek wisdom was actually stolen from Shlomo Hamelech and Chazal?

faigie

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 2:38 pm

esti, but if that is the case, all we can see with out eyes is the earth revolving around the sun............so that can be confusing. ( the entire universe, obviously isnt just our little solar system.)

Lechatchila Ariber

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 5:05 pm

faigie take two balls, spin them and move them simultaneously around each other. (you may need someone to help you)

which one is revolving around which.

we don't "see" the earth to be revolving around the sun. we can't see what is happening

amother... again: where are you quoting from?

amother

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 5:37 pm

Quoting from the article.

Does anyone read the contents, or just busy digging the heals into the ground?

amother

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 5:52 pm

Technically, they both (the sun and the earth) revolve around the point that is the center of gravity of both of them. That point is deep within the sun. But technically, the sun does move in a circle of about 10 miles every year as it orbits around the point that is the center of gravity for the sun and all the planets/asteroids/comets, etc.

(Amother because I'm scared of some of you)

Lechatchila Ariber

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 7:44 pm

Quote:

Quoting from the article.

quoting from WHAT article???????? by whom?

faigie

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 7:49 pm

estie, the sun isnt going anywhere, so you can see the other plants in sort of an eliptical going around it. of that there is no doubt.
but our solar system is just a smalll tiny part of the universe itself. and what that huge system is revolving around we just cant see.

amother

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 8:38 pm

faigie wrote:

Hey, I think that everything revolves around me. At least that's what my husband tells me. So maybe it does?

amother

Thu, Nov 15 2007, 9:31 pm

I found this in the article:

To learn more and to see animated examples of orbits on the Internet, go to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Orbit1.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Orbit3.gif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Orbit4.gif
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w.....m.gif

It demonstrates the orbits in different situations. The sun-earth is demonstrated by the Orbit4 animation.

The (draft) article, again, is:
http://docs.google.com/View?do.....hsk5n

hadasa

Sun, Nov 18 2007, 10:35 am

The way I understand it (feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong) is that just like the Rebbe uses Einstein to back up his understanding of the Pesukim, so did the Rambam use contemporary science and philosophy.

But that does NOT mean that their understanding of Torah is based on these sources, just that they use them to explain it to those who need scientific explanations.

Would you say that Rambam's belief in G-d is based on Aristotle? I would say that Moreh Nevochim was only written to convince Jewish followers of Aristotle of the truth of Judaism. Very different.

amother

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 2:00 pm

Quote:

It is still a perplexing mystery trying to understand how people today can still believe in the imaginative Greek model of the world which violates many God-given laws of physics. Yet, these same people drive cars, fly in airplanes, use electric power, and make international phone calls via satellites, all of which would be impossible without the same laws of physics.

The best proof that deep in their heart even the most-religious Jews accept the scientific model of the world, comes to light every Friday evening. The time of sunset on Friday evening is critical to the determination of the beginning of Shabbat. How many Rabbis are there in the world today who know how to calculate, years in advance, based on the Jewish calendar, the correct times of candle-lighting and sunset in their own location? Rabbis and non-Rabbis alike, all around the globe, including those who openly reject modern science, when they need to find out these exact times, they all look at the times published in their local Jewish calendar. All these times are determined by advanced SCIENTIFIC calculations which follow the SCIENTIFIC model of the world.

Louis Pasteur proved that the ancient theory of spontaneous generation of life is false. Based on that, he invented the cure to many infectious diseases - antibiotics. He also invented the pasteurization of milk, which works only because spontaneous generation does not exist. Now, when it comes to needing antibiotics to cure an infection, everyone accepts Pasteur's discovery and invention. When it comes to drinking milk, nobody will let a child drink it unpasteurized. How is it, then, that when it comes to accepting the underlying evidence which led to these inventions and made them possible, some people reject it?

The livelihood and social status of some people depend on their loyalty to a religious party line. They don't enjoy the freedom to express what they really believe in. This can explain some of these mysteries. Quietly enjoying the benefits of modern science does not involve a risk. The only ones who can afford to express what they think, are those whose livelihood and social status are not tied to such party-line loyalty.

He is right. My DH parnassa does depend on such party-line loyalty. That's why I have to post anonymously.

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Nov 19 2007, 2:21 pm

since with the latest revelation on imamother this thread in all likelyhood was started by TammyTammy AKA sue danym herself....it changes the whole flavor of the thread...no?

hadasa

Sun, Nov 25 2007, 5:27 am

Well, if this thread ever gets boring I can always try arguing with myself. Maybe I'll create an obnoxious MO personality to argue with. I think I'll call her......AnneO'Nymous.

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