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Different Kiruv Approaches
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 11:53 pm
Motek wrote:
Pickle Lady wrote:
Then I realized its a me and G-d deal.


you're a smart girl! Wink

(you can tell those outreach professionals a thing or two ... you know, the ones who promote Shabbos as family time and Family Purity as good for your marriage - and both are true - but where's G-d in the picture? Some of them are afraid to say the G Word)


You know, I think that there are different types of kiruv for a reason. B/c there are different types of people. There are those who are searching for G-d and meaning, but in the US where gashmius is king, they are often in the minority. Often Jews are afraid of hearing the "G word" and I say this from experience. I'm glad that there are organizations that can appeal to those types of people and find a way in through the backdoor so to speak, in order for them to give G-d and Judaism a second chance!
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stem




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 07 2005, 11:57 pm
I think that is the difference between Aish Hatorah and Ohr Sameach. Aish is geared more towards gashmius. They try to get people to just start keeping shabbos and see it's benefits as they go. Ohr Sameach likes to start with solid learning till they feel strong enough to take upon some mitzvos one at a time.

I got these comparisons from two people that I went out with. I happened to go out with them one after the other and was interested to see how each would compare their Yeshiva to the other one.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 08 2005, 12:22 am
stem wrote:
I think that is the difference between Aish Hatorah and Ohr Sameach. Aish is geared more towards gashmius. They try to get people to just start keeping shabbos and see it's benefits as they go. Ohr Sameach likes to start with solid learning till they feel strong enough to take upon some mitzvos one at a time.

I got these comparisons from two people that I went out with. I happened to go out with them one after the other and was interested to see how each would compare their Yeshiva to the other one.


You know, the interesting thing is, Rav Noach Weinberg started both instituitions. He actually 'shlepped' Rav Mendel Weinbach and Rav Nota Schiller along behind his idea of a yeshiva for ba'alei teshuva. He later differed with them on focus and broke off and started Aish HaTorah.

Oh - and Aish in Jerusalem is much more focused on convincing a person of the truth of G-d and torah and progressing from there. In the US they have the more 'backdoor' approach, and it is b/c they have had more success with it. That was the biggest shock for my husband moving to the US - here, you can convince people of the truth of G-d and torah and they often will still not change their life. UNLESS, they have a 'lo leshma' to motivate them so that they believe it is in their best interest ("it will help my marriage" "it will improve my family life" etc)
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stem




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 08 2005, 12:26 am
It seems that they are rivals now, each thinks their way is the only (or best) way. But I see how each one has an amazing track record, so I guess a person would pick his Yeshiva depending on the style of kiruv that he is attracted to.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 08 2005, 12:31 am
stem wrote:
It seems that they are rivals now, each thinks their way is the only (or best) way. But I see how each one has an amazing track record, so I guess a person would pick his Yeshiva depending on the style of kiruv that he is attracted to.


I agree with the part about what people are attracted to.

BTW - I think they are much less 'rivals' today than in the past b/c of a further change in focus. Aish really only wants people to stick around in the yeshiva past the first year or two for kiruv training. After they have you to a point where you are frum and can learn, you move on to another yeshiva unless you are someone who wants to go into kiruv. Also, Ohr Someyach isn't doing much kiruv outside of Jerusalem these days b/c of financial issues, but yes, they are much more focused on 'get this guy frum and into a mainstream yeshiva'.

Just interesting to me how they have evolved into different institutions over the years. My husband has worked in both places and has a pretty good feel for what is going on in both.


Last edited by chavamom on Fri, Jul 08 2005, 12:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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stem




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 08 2005, 12:40 am
I just wanted to add that what I wrote about them being rivals was just based on the conversations that I had with those two students that I met. I am also in awe of both Yeshivos, and in fact, any organization or person who help Jewish people find the Torah.
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Pickle Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 08 2005, 1:34 am
Ok this is my perspectice IF you promote family purity and shabbos as beneficial to your self. like family purity strengthens a marriage and shabbos is a great day of rest then once those things aren't proving true. Like leaving work early is a HUGE inconvienince and family purity is annoying and you miss your husband. So what then...BTs do go through this..there are many many BTs that are religious and when times got hard they became not religous anymore.

The "Me and G-d deal" is really important.
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Pickle Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 08 2005, 1:46 am
Motek wrote:
Pickle Lady wrote:
Then I realized its a me and G-d deal.


you're a smart girl! Wink

(you can tell those outreach professionals a thing or two ... you know, the ones who promote Shabbos as family time and Family Purity as good for your marriage - and both are true - but where's G-d in the picture? Some of them are afraid to say the G Word)


Thanks Very Happy

Honestly and education is key...

"Shabbos as family time"---hmmm

"Family Purity as good for your marriage"---lets just say I don't at all agree..ok mikvah night is the good part and the only good part.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 08 2005, 1:53 am
Pickle Lady wrote:
Ok this is my perspectice IF you promote family purity and shabbos as beneficial to your self. like family purity strengthens a marriage and shabbos is a great day of rest then once those things aren't proving true. Like leaving work early is a HUGE inconvienince and family purity is annoying and you miss your husband. So what then...BTs do go through this..there are many many BTs that are religious and when times got hard they became not religous anymore.

The "Me and G-d deal" is really important.


The 'it's good for your marriage' etc is the opening the 'G-d and me' part is the closer Wink .

And we've all known frum Jews of all persuations (FFB, BT's of all stripes) that jumped ship when the going got tough.
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JEWISHMAMA




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jul 08 2005, 7:06 am
I come from a family of non jews and jews and I talk to my kids about what my childhood was like as well as my husband´s. we are very honest with our kids and our families have alot of resprect for one another. my dad´s a [gentile] and we do get into discussions about religion and why I do certain things. if is wasn´t for him I wouldn´t have the frum family I have today. he gave my siblings and I the choice between being jewish or going off the derech. he always sent us to jewish schools as he said they had the best education. as my moms jewish we were always accepted. my sister married a [gentile], unfortunately but I still have the joy that her children, when she has any, will still be jewish and I hope that I might be an example for them to follow back into the fold.
my kids do ask why auntie or grandma does things and we dont but they know that we live a different life and that´s the way it is. they dont look down on them and are not confused in any way. we also have tv and videos in my house and we are trying to get rid of them as I have noticed it really make a big difference. you wont notice it until you remove them.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2005, 11:59 am
stem wrote:
I think that is the difference between Aish Hatorah and Ohr Sameach. Aish is geared more towards gashmius. They try to get people to just start keeping shabbos and see it's benefits as they go. Ohr Sameach likes to start with solid learning till they feel strong enough to take upon some mitzvos one at a time.


interesting

and Chabad takes yet another approach which is to give a person an opportunity to do a mitzva, the idea being that even without understanding the significance of a mitzva or how it can benefit you b'gashmius, a mitzva, by definition, connects a person to Hashem because Hashem commanded us to do mitzvos. And as the mishna says, "mitzva goreres mitzva" - one mitzva leads to another.

and as far as the Truth of G-d - here too, Chabad takes a different approach

rather than seek to prove anything about G-d, Chabad works with the assumption that Jews are "maaminim bnei maaminim" - believers by virtue of being Jews. Just as you don't need anybody to prove to you that YOU exist, Jews don't need to have G-d's existence proven to them either.

I find it amazing that people with no Jewish knowledge are willing to do a mitzva as seemingly irrational as putting on black boxes and reciting a prayer.

Quote:
you can convince people of the truth of G-d and torah and they often will still not change their life. UNLESS, they have a 'lo leshma' to motivate them so that they believe it is in their best interest ("it will help my marriage" "it will improve my family life" etc


just like a doctor can intellectually know the truth about what is harmful to his health and do it anyway

but again, in Chabad, the antidote is not the lo lishma, but as Picklelady explained (and she's a living example of what we're talking about) - the realization that Torah and mitzvos is what my very life is about

I should add that this is not to say that NO mention is ever made about how mitzvos are good for you b'gashmius, because the Torah says they are! And it's not to say that NO mention is ever made about proofs of G-d's existence. It's just not the general approach.
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Pickle Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2005, 7:48 pm
Interesting to note. My aunt and uncle (BTs) are chabad shluchim but I and my sister their nieces were not at all frum. They always knew I had a spark to want to lead a more jewish life so they tried many different "kiruv" approaches.

I went to Crown Hieghts to get dollars from the Rebbe as a kid, went to Gan Israel camps, an NCSY convention, one year at a modern orthodox high school, Manis Friedman week long seminar, once year at a Lubavitch High School, Birthright trip to Israel, . After all of that I was lets just say still not frum. You would think after all of that I would have been frum BUT ...NO...I went to 4 years of college and was a real college girl and after that did I think and really want to realistically become frum. But almost didn't. cause I already knew that life being religous is hard and that their family life is not perfect either So why should I be frum?..What was the advantage?

So which approach worked for me...Hmmm not sure

Maybe all of them, maybe none of them.

Yes I do think that differenly people need different approaches...BUT we need to make sure that thier approach is still a torah approach.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2005, 10:42 pm
Pickle Lady wrote:
Yes I do think that differenly people need different approaches...BUT we need to make sure that thier approach is still a torah approach.


I'm curious which approach you feel is not a 'torah approach'.
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Pickle Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 10 2005, 10:55 pm
Hmm you can't think of any "kiruv" that do things that were against halacha in the name of doing kiruv. I know I can think of a few. But I don't want to name any names. I don't want to start a war on here.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2005, 12:46 am
Pickle Lady wrote:
Hmm you can't think of any "kiruv" that do things that were against halacha in the name of doing kiruv. I know I can think of a few. But I don't want to name any names. I don't want to start a war on here.


I'm not sure what you mean. I know that there are people that disagree with things that certain rabbanim/organizations do (such as inviting people for a shabbos meal knowing that they would drive) but everyone that I know has asked a rav and is following 'da'as torah' on the issue. If it were 'not halachic' in that a rav poskened that it was assur, then they wouldn't do it. So no, I really don't know what you are talking about.
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2005, 11:38 am
Pickle Lady wrote:

The "Me and G-d deal" is really important.


True, this has to come at some point.

Basically there are two parts to kiruv: toras chaim - the beauty of judaism and toras emes - the truth of judaism. Many people when hearing about the truth of Judaism will be thinking, can I do it, is it enjoyable, how will it affect me? So they need to see that Torah is beautiful and that the torah way is a good way. Then they can progress. On the other hand if someone never asks 'is it true' then they it will limit their progress, b/c as pl said there will come a time when they don't like a certain mitzva.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2005, 5:30 pm
OK, I realized later on what (I think) you meant about non-halachic approaches to kiruv. I think the difference there was that the person you (I THINK!) were refering too poskened for himself and didn't ask a sheila.
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Pickle Lady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2005, 6:18 pm
chavamom wrote:
OK, I realized later on what (I think) you meant about non-halachic approaches to kiruv. I think the difference there was that the person you (I THINK!) were refering too poskened for himself and didn't ask a sheila.


So don't you think that is not good.
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chavamom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 11 2005, 7:23 pm
I meant that a person that poskens for themselves has a problem. I wouldn't call that 'halachic'!
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 17 2005, 5:21 pm
(bold is mine)

Jewish Chronicle, England


9-May-2003 Judaism > Alternative Minyan
Aish of clubs
Nathan Jeffay

Nathan Jeffay profiles the Orthodox organisation for young adults that knows how to play its cards.


Aish is the biggest religious phenomenon among young British Jewish adults. Little known a decade ago, it now takes 500 youngsters on Jewish educational programmes annually and reaches 1,100 every week on campuses and at its Hendon centre in North-West London.

It has created hundreds of Jewishly aware youngsters, also drawing some of them back from a path towards intermarriage. It has spawned a whole new vocabulary: to “go on Aish” means to attend one of its cut-price summer trips abroad; to be “Aished” means to become religiously influenced by the movement; and in religious circles, an “Aishy” explanation of a Torah topic denotes a feel-good answer rather than textual interpretation.

The world-wide Aish HaTorah — “fire of the Torah” — movement began in 1974 — founded by Rabbi Noah Weinberg in Jerusalem. He started his operation from an Old City flat, having since expanded to encompass a yesh-ivah and dormitories, as well as 25 outreach branches located on five continents, in 25 major cities, and 87 full-time educational staff. Over 75,000 people attend Aish education programmes around the world, 60,000 take part in web-based shiurim, and 1,000 study in its Jerusalem programme each year. It has trained 175 rabbis and educators,

In the UK, it puts on large, sometimes offbeat, events which pull in the crowds — for instance, a recent fire-eating show in Leeds. Many of its rabbis draw large audiences to their talks.

But for all its successes — including alumni in Gateshead’s Orthodox community, groups of young professionals spending holidays in the Aish Hatorah Yeshivah in Jerusalem, a weekly Friday-night service in Hendon packed with youngsters who in many cases might otherwise be out clubbing, according to Aish UK executive director Rabbi Naftali Schiff — — there seems to be a single label Aish will do almost anything to avoid: that of “religious.”

In 2001, Aish dropped “Hatorah” from its name — though this, Rabbi Schiff says, was “simply because Aish is easier to say.” At Aish HQ, rabbis don’t wear hats; they’re called by first names; and beards are short or non-existent. The emphasis is on preventing intermarriage rather than the demands of observance.

Jewish life is presented less as a set of mitzvot, and more a matter of values, an approach more often associated with non-Orthodox thinkers.

“We just want to share the beauty, wisdom, and sense of belonging and to show that Judaism has so much to offer that people don’t get the chance to see,” says Rabbi Schiff. He speaks less of ritual observance than of universal notions. “The purpose is to make the world a better place,” through “Torat chayim,” the Torah of life. “We are committed to the Jewish mission of being a light unto the nations,” he declares.

Halachic observance is never compelled at Aish because “God will judge what is right or wrong.” Rabbi Schiff adds that he is sure that “God would prefer 50,000 proud Jews than 50 frum Jews” — a maxim which guides Aish’s work, but not the yeshivah world from which it was spawned.

“We are not in the na’aseh v’nishmah generation,” he says — an allusion to the biblical idea of “we will do and we will understand” which ranks observance over explanation and is the generally accepted ethos of Orthodoxy. In a clear critique of Lubavitch’s brand of kiruv, outreach, he adds: “If you put tefilin on people, you are not doing anything. If I had 10 minutes, I would talk to them about why it is important to be a Jew.”

The Aish approach is tailored to bring results. Rabbi Schiff takes pride in the trendy “pistachio green and light purple” of the Aish premises, deliberately designed not to resemble a set of classrooms. Though “all the staff would be living in Israel if they could be,” he remarks, aliyah is not discussed, because it would not go down well. Results are not measured in terms of how many of those who come through Aish’s doors become Orthodox.

“In the course of 10 years, I have met thousands of students, a small minority of whom have turned religious,” Rabbi Schiff says. He sees Aish, instead, as an emergency rescue mission from assimilation. “Even if people put Judaism aside, they can still pick up values of morality and goodness,” he declares.

Aish UK is financially autonomous, and while not directly affected by a downturn in the international operation’s funding in the past several years, its own finances, he acknowledges, “are not great.” With a £1.5-million budget, it is constantly fund-raising.

“We are trying to reverse the alarming trend of intermarriage and assimilation ravaging our community,” adds Aish’s Rabbi Brian Rubin-stein, who ran the London Marathon to raise money for the organisation.

“We need to show people that Judaism is relevant and meaningful in 2003. We need to break down misconceptions about what being Jewish is all about. And we need money to do that.”

Its bid to “capture the imagination” of Jewish youth has included safaris, as well as trips to Australia.

More conventionally, Rabbi Mordechai Nissim, head of its young-adult programmes, led a group of 30 young professionals to yeshivah in December. His purpose was simply for them to experience Orthodox Judaism. “New packaging, old formula,” he called it. “It may be that our programmes focus in a modern way, and in state-of-the-art classrooms, but essentially the life-lessons and values are exactly the same as 1,500 years ago,” he adds.

Although some may feel that the Aish approach too superficial, its softly-softly line on religion and emphasis on “making the world a better place” appears to have paid off in terms of popularity.

Aish participants “might not be putting tefilin on,” says Rabbi Schiff, “but they are growing in their own way.”
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