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Best way to answer a teen about H's existence?
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 09 2007, 1:33 pm
Quote:
That's fine... but that's not a proof either, it's a conclusion based on a preponderance of the evidence


I don't know, I'm not sure. I suppose if someone with a 100% neutral mind examined all the proofs he would conclude Judaism is right. but we still have to find him/her lol
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 10 2007, 12:34 am
Quote:
The bottom line is that we, ourselves, are not eyewitnesses to the events, and any tradition that we have from our parents on the subject is heresay and would not stand up in any court (including Bais Din). It's not proof that Matan Torah happened, it's simply proof that our parents say that it happened. As such, it's hardly credible as absolute proof as to the historicity of Matan Torah.
However, the Jews who witnessed Matan Torah WERE eyewitnesses, and the Jews to whom they transmitted the Torah were eyewitnesses to the testimony given to them by that generation, the transmission of the Torah began from then in an uninterupted chain, and that WOULD stand up in court, or Beis Din.

As we learn in Avos, Moshe recieved the Torah from Sinai, and gave it to Yehoshua....This chain, directly from Matan Torah is still going strong, because each generation gives semicha to the next.

The Torah is not independently arrived at by each generation, there is a process of semicha - transmission- the "shalsheles hakabbalah"- under very precise specific halachic conditions from one generation to the next, unbroken all the way back to Matan Torah. So that in effect, we all still stand at Sinai.
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TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 10 2007, 5:41 am
TzenaRena wrote:
Quote:
The bottom line is that we, ourselves, are not eyewitnesses to the events, and any tradition that we have from our parents on the subject is heresay and would not stand up in any court (including Bais Din). It's not proof that Matan Torah happened, it's simply proof that our parents say that it happened. As such, it's hardly credible as absolute proof as to the historicity of Matan Torah.
However, the Jews who witnessed Matan Torah WERE eyewitnesses, and the Jews to whom they transmitted the Torah were eyewitnesses to the testimony given to them by that generation, the transmission of the Torah began from then in an uninterupted chain, and that WOULD stand up in court, or Beis Din.


No it would not. That is the very definition of heresay, or in the language of the Talmud aid mipi aid.


Quote:

As we learn in Avos, Moshe recieved the Torah from Sinai, and gave it to Yehoshua....This chain, directly from Matan Torah is still going strong, because each generation gives semicha to the next.

The Torah is not independently arrived at by each generation, there is a process of semicha - transmission- the "shalsheles hakabbalah"- under very precise specific halachic conditions from one generation to the next, unbroken all the way back to Matan Torah. So that in effect, we all still stand at Sinai.


That's not proof at all - because even if I grant you that Moshe gave over the Torah to Yehoshua in front of millions, that does not validate the rest of the chain -- as with the list of Sumerian kings that I gave earlier -- no doubt the latter ones were historical personages. But that does not mean that everyone on the list is historical.

Tammy
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 12 2007, 2:37 pm
TammyTammy wrote:

Which is hearsay at best. I suppose you'd give equivelant credence to the the Greeks who claimed to be descended from the heroes of the Trojan War, who also received from their parents an account of the fall of Troy and how the gods intervened?


Hearsay? I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. When 2-3 millions people tell the next generation what they witnessed, that's not hearsay. To compare that to unwitnessed claims is no comparison.

What makes something acceptable to a beis din or not is irrelevant here, because there are many laws about evidence in a beis din that don't exactly follow what we would consider logic. For example, if 100 people testify to something and 2 people contradict it, then it's considered a deadlock. So what? That has nothing to do with how you and me make our decisions about what is reliable.

Quote:
As HR pointed out earlier, you can't command someone to know something.


And the Rambam didn't know what HR knows? Do you hear what you're saying?

It's not about my personal feelings about your mitzva observance either, that's not an appropriate remark IMO.

TammyTammy wrote:

The bottom line is that we, ourselves, are not eyewitnesses to the events, and any tradition that we have from our parents on the subject is heresay and would not stand up in any court (including Bais Din).

even if I grant you that Moshe gave over the Torah to Yehoshua in front of millions, that does not validate the rest of the chain


Science (which you greatly respect as apparent in other discussions) deals with facts. A fact is considered any event or phenomenon testified to by witnesses, especially where the evidence is identical and comes from witnesses of varied interests, education, social background etc.

Where there is such evidence, it is accepted as fact which is undeniable, even if it does not agree with a scientific theory. This is the accepted practice in science, even where are several reliable witnesses, and certainly scores of them, hundreds and thousands.

Mattan Torah was a fact witnessed by millions of people, all of whom reported it to its minutest detail, accurately, for all the Jewish people stood at Sinai and witnessed it.

We know that this is a fact because millions of Jews in our day accept it as such, because they receive it as such from their own parents, and these millions in turn received the evidence from the previous generation, and so on, in an uninterrupted chain of transmitted evidence from millions to millions of witnesses, generation after generation, back to the original millions of witneses who saw the event with their own eyes.

Among these original witnesses there were many who were familiar with the sciences of those days. There were philosophers and thinkers, as well as ignorant and uneducated people, women and children of all ages. Yet all of them reported the event and phenomenon connected with it without contradiction to each other.

Such a fact is certain indisputable. There is no other fact which can match it for evidence and accuracy. To deny such a fact is anything but scientific.
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 12 2007, 2:47 pm
1. You can't command someone to know something. Period. Ramban was a great deal wiser than me; great. I accept that. You still can't command someone to know something.

2. There doesn't exist this unbroken chain that you are talking about. Did your mother and or father really one day sit down and tell you "Motek, my mother told me that her mother told her that her mother told her etc. etc.? " Even so, there is no connection to the "top" of the chain to say "and here it is in black and white", OTHER THAN THE TORAH. We have the Torah. We accept, or at least I accept the Torah. Prove it? You can't to me and you can't to a wise teen who demands solid evidence and not circular thinking. Like I said, I don't require proof of any kind of Hashem.

Try and prove G-d and matan Torah and one ends up talking in circles. I really think this does a greater disservice to an intelligent thinking child than telling them "you are correct, we can't prove it. That is what behirat nufshi is all about."
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 12 2007, 3:58 pm
Quote:
You can't command someone to know something. Period. Ramban was a great deal wiser than me; great. I accept that. You still can't command someone to know something.


I'm certainly not familiar with all of Rambam's writings, but I would offer the following support to your argument.
Rambam himself refers to his acceptance of G-d as "Ani Maamin Be'emunah Shleimah", and not as "Ani Yodeah L'Lo Safek". Though his belief was complete, it did not crossover into "knowledge", according to his own proclamation.
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 12 2007, 4:39 pm
Tammy, you said you accept historical events such as George Washington being the first president, etc., as fact, because we have many sources to verify his existence and his actions, not just one. But if we apply the same skepticism toward George Washington as you seem to be applying toward the events surrounding Matan Torah, we can debunk him too, I am sure!! All of those documents were forgeries, for all we know! The so-called "primary sources" that corroborate his existence are biased, or fabricated, or misunderstandings, or just plain delusional! His face on the dollar bill.... just some artist's fantasy! So why do we accept that he lived at all, that he was the first president of the United States? It's all hearsay. WE weren't there. WE have no proof. WE have to rely on faith alone. We can't trust our own history, our own tradition. Nothing is for certain... we should really tell history students that while we BELIEVE George Washingon existed, we cannot KNOW this for sure..............
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 12 2007, 4:46 pm
TammyTammy wrote:
amother wrote:
TammyTammy wrote:
amother wrote:

Chassidus gives this example, 1+1=2. It will always equal 2 till infinity or going back to infinity. Nothing will ever change 1+1=2


Except binary. Smile

Tammy


What are you talking about? 1+1 always equals 2!


If I have to explain it, then it's no longer funny.

Tammy


Not everyone is familiar with the binary system; it was kind of an "in" joke that just some people would get -- so why not explain it?

Our usual, everyday number system is the decimal system -- "dec" meaning ten, as in ten digits (0-9). There are other systems for other purposes, one being the binary system, which uses just two digits ("bi" meaning two), 0 and 1. Computers "speak" in binary code; everything programmed into them gets turned into 0's and 1's.

In binary, 1+1 can't equal 2 because there is no 2........
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 12 2007, 5:46 pm
HindaRochel wrote:
1. You can't command someone to know something. Period. Rambam was a great deal wiser than me; great. I accept that. You still can't command someone to know something.


The Rambam thinks you can. You think you can't. And your Torah source is?

Quote:
There doesn't exist this unbroken chain that you are talking about.


Tell me when the chain broke.

Quote:
Did your mother and or father really one day sit down and tell you "Motek, my mother told me that her mother told her that her mother told her etc. etc.?


Yes, that is what we do at the Pesach seder and it was also spoken about on other holidays (it's part of the davening that I was taught). And they paid tuition and sent me to a Jewish school where I learned it there too.

Quote:
Even so, there is no connection to the "top" of the chain to say "and here it is in black and white", OTHER THAN THE TORAH.


Wrong. Millions of people relayed it to millions of people.

Quote:
Try and prove G-d and matan Torah and one ends up talking in circles.


The Torah greats over the centuries disagree with you. See above, where I wrote the Chovos Ha'Levavos. I've quoted the Rambam. Now I'm quoting the Ramban. Tell me who your Torah source is.

Quote:
I really think this does a greater disservice to an intelligent thinking child than telling them "you are correct, we can't prove it. That is what behirat nufshi is all about."


I think that saying "We can't prove it" is a lie.

רמב"ן על דברים פרק ד פסוק ט
זהו שאמר שם (שמות יט ט) וגם בך יאמינו לעולם, כי כשנעתיק גם כן הדבר לבנינו ידעו שהיה הדבר אמת בלא ספק כאלו ראוהו כל הדורות, כי לא נעיד שקר לבנינו ולא ננחיל אותם דבר הבל ואין בם מועיל והם לא יסתפקו כלל בעדותנו שנעיד להם, אבל יאמינו בודאי שראינו כולנו בעינינו


"This is what it says there (Shemos 19:9) "and also in you [Moshe] they will believe forever," because when we also relay this to our children, they will know that the matter was true, without a doubt as though all the generations saw it, for we would not falsely testify to our children, nor bequeath to them vacuous and worthless things, and they will not be skeptical at all about the testimony we tell them, but will believe for a certainty that we all saw it with our eyes."

If you plan on responding and negating this, please also provide a Torah source to support your point.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 12 2007, 6:00 pm
amother wrote:
I'm certainly not familiar with all of Rambam's writings, but I would offer the following support to your argument.
Rambam himself refers to his acceptance of G-d as "Ani Maamin Be'emunah Shleimah", and not as "Ani Yodeah L'Lo Safek". Though his belief was complete, it did not crossover into "knowledge", according to his own proclamation.


The Rambam did not write the 13 Ani Maamins. The 13 are based on what the Rambam writes in his commentary to the Mishna (Sanhedrin, chapter 10) where he refers to them as yesodos.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 12 2007, 6:14 pm
Here's something interesting Smile

The classic commentary (pirush) on the Rambam's Hilchos Yesodei Ha'Torah, chapter 1 says:

"Understand, that the ikrim that we must believe regarding understanding of the Creator consists of four ikrim ..."

Note, in the one phrase, he uses the words: understand, believe, understanding!

Perhaps we need to go and study how the terms "understanding" and "belief" are used in Jewish thought.

Some posters have the erroneous uh, belief, that belief is something we use when we can't prove something, so we have to fall back on belief, because belief is not 100%, and that if I understand something, then I have no doubts.

It's the opposite! This classic commentary is saying that since I believe, I have no doubts! Only if I have doubts, do I need to prove it to myself.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 12 2007, 10:56 pm
The RamBam's words are : יסוד היסודות ועמוד החכמות לידע שיש שם מצוי ראשון והוא ממציא כל נמצא The foundation of all foundations, and the pillar of all wisdom is to KNOW that there is a Primary Existence, Who brings every existence into being....and if it should arise in one's mind that He doesn't exist, not one thing would be able to exist.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 13 2007, 5:29 am
shalhevet wrote:


The Torah disagrees with you. The pasuk says
וידעת היום והשבות אל לבבך כי ד' הוא א' בשמים ממעל...
And you shall KNOW today ... that Hashem is G-d in the heavens above and the earth beneath. There is no other.

We have an obligation to KNOW about G-d's existence, not just to believe.


Why do you have to go back as far as the Rambam? I brought this pasuk a few pages ago! (This isn't for Tammy, who thinks there are pesukim in the Torah which were only for that generation, and don't apply to us - it's for the rest of the posters in the discussion).

Quote:

ספר החינוך מצוות כה:
להאמין שיש לעולם א-לה אחד, שהמציא כל הנמצא ומכחו וחפצו היה כל מה שהוא ושהיה ושיהיה עדי עד, וכי הוא הוציאנו מארץ מצרים ונתן לנו את התורה. שנ' בתחילת נתינת התורה "אנכי ד' א' אשר הוצאתיך מארץ מצרים'" וגו'. ופרושו כאילו אמר: תדעו ותאמינו שיש לעולם א-לה, כי מלת "אנכי" תורה על המציאות. ואשר אמר "אשר הוצאתיך" וכו' לומר . שלא יפתה לבבכם לקחת ענין צאתכם מעבדות מצרים ומכות מצרים דרך מקרה, אלא דעו, שאנכי הוצאתי אתכם בחפץ ובהשגחה, כמו שהבטיח לאבתינו אברהם יצחק ויעקב.
...
ואם יזכה לעלות במעלות החכמה ולבבו יבין ובעיניו יראה במופת נחתך, שהאמנה הזאת שהאמין אמת וברור,אי אפשר להיות דבר בלתי זה, אז יקים מצות עשה זה מצוה מן המבחר....


Quote:

Sefer haChinuch Mitzva 25
To believe that the world has one G-d, who created everything and everything came into being through His wish, and He was and will be forever, and that He took us out of Egypt and gave us the Torah. As it says at the beginning of the giving of the Torah "I am the L-rd, your G-d who took you out of the land of Egypt..." and the explanation is as if it says that you should know and believe that the world has a G-d, since the word "I" shows the reality. And it says "who took you out..." to say that your heart shouldn't be tempted to take the exodus from slavery in Egypt and the plagues in Egypt as if they were random, but know - that I took you out of Egypt willingly and with Divine Providence, as He promised our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....

and if he merits climbing the rungs of wisdom
, and his heart understands, and his eyes will see the wonders, that the belief he believes is true and clear, nothing else is possible, then he will fulfil this positive mitzva in the best possible way..."

(my translation)

So Tammy and HindaRochel, I am still waiting for your sources to back you up against all these pesukim and rishonim.
Until then we can only daven that you merit climbing the rungs of wisdom...
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HindaRochel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 13 2007, 7:57 am
[quote="shalhevet"]
shalhevet wrote:




Quote:

ספר החינוך מצוות כה:
להאמין שיש לעולם א-לה אחד, שהמציא כל הנמצא ומכחו וחפצו היה כל מה שהוא ושהיה ושיהיה עדי עד, וכי הוא הוציאנו מארץ מצרים ונתן לנו את התורה. שנ' בתחילת נתינת התורה "אנכי ד' א' אשר הוצאתיך מארץ מצרים'" וגו'. ופרושו כאילו אמר: תדעו ותאמינו שיש לעולם א-לה, כי מלת "אנכי" תורה על המציאות. ואשר אמר "אשר הוצאתיך" וכו' לומר . שלא יפתה לבבכם לקחת ענין צאתכם מעבדות מצרים ומכות מצרים דרך מקרה, אלא דעו, שאנכי הוצאתי אתכם בחפץ ובהשגחה, כמו שהבטיח לאבתינו אברהם יצחק ויעקב.
...
ואם יזכה לעלות במעלות החכמה ולבבו יבין ובעיניו יראה במופת נחתך, שהאמנה הזאת שהאמין אמת וברור,אי אפשר להיות דבר בלתי זה, אז יקים מצות עשה זה מצוה מן המבחר....


Quote:

Sefer haChinuch Mitzva 25
To believe that the world has one G-d, who created everything and everything came into being through His wish, and He was and will be forever, and that He took us out of Egypt and gave us the Torah. As it says at the beginning of the giving of the Torah "I am the L-rd, your G-d who took you out of the land of Egypt..." and the explanation is as if it says that you should know and believe that the world has a G-d, since the word "I" shows the reality. And it says "who took you out..." to say that your heart shouldn't be tempted to take the exodus from slavery in Egypt and the plagues in Egypt as if they were random, but know - that I took you out of Egypt willingly and with Divine Providence, as He promised our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....

and if he merits climbing the rungs of wisdom
, and his heart understands, and his eyes will see the wonders, that the belief he believes is true and clear, nothing else is possible, then he will fulfil this positive mitzva in the best possible way..."

(my translation)

So Tammy and HindaRochel, I am still waiting for your sources to back you up against all these pesukim and rishonim.
Until then we can only daven that you merit climbing the rungs of wisdom...


1. I really find that last statement obnoxious and deragatory.
2. I do know and believe that G-d exists, that Torah is m'Sinai, and that Hashem brought us out of Mitzraim. But I know in a different way than I know that in the decimal system 2+2 = 4. Know is used in many ways including in the Torah....I know with my heart and soul, not my head.
3. Proofs are for the head. They may work for some, at least for a little while, but for those who are questioners, the answers give rise to more questions which could lead to a diminishing of faith in Hashem, matan Torah and Hashem taking us out of Mitzraim.
4. What some here seem to be suggesting is if you don't accept the proof you are either a)stupid b)keneged Torah.

I am neither. The proof has its faults. If the proof is subject to question and can't answer those questions than the proof is faulty. It doesn't matter to me. I don't prove G-d. I don't think it is possible. I think it a fools errand and I bet you'll lose more souls by trying to prove G-d then letting G-d prove Himself to the hearts and souls of the young and not so young, via our actions as human beings.

You really want to argue, go find a skeptic and try some of your proofs on them. Honestly, you'll be laughed silly.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 13 2007, 8:56 am
Quote:
The proof has its faults. If the proof is subject to question and can't answer those questions than the proof is faulty.
The answer to this assertion is the quote Motek brought from the Rambam, in the other thread. I'll take the liberty of translating it, since she didn't.

Quote:
Quote:
רמב"ם פירוש המשניות - מסכת סנהדרין פרק י משנה א
הכת השניה הם רבים ג"כ, והם אותם שראו דברי החכמים או שמעום והבינו אותם כפי פשוטם וחשבו שלא כיוונו חכמים בו זולתי מה שמורה עליו פשט הדבר, והם באים לסכל אותם ולגנותם ומוציאין דיבה על מה שאין בו דיבה וילעגו על דברי חכמים ושכלם יותר זך מהם, ושהם עמי הארץ נפתים גרועי השכל סכלים בכלל המציאות עד שלא היו משיגים דבר חכמה בשום פנים, ורוב הנכשלים בזה השיבוש המתיחסים לחכמת הרפואות והמהבילים בגזרת הכוכבים, לפי שהם במחשבתם נבונים וחכמים בעיניהם ומחודדים ופילוסופים וכמה הם רחוקים מן האנושית אצל אותם שהם חכמים ופילוסופים על האמת, אבל הם סכלים יותר מן הכת הראשונה והרבה מהם פתיות, והוא כת ארורה לפי שהם משיבים על אנשים גדולים ונשיאים אשר נתבררה חכמתם לחכמים ואלו הפתאים אילו היה עמלם בחכמות עד שיהיו יודעים היאך ראוי לסדר ולכתוב הדברים בחכמת האלהות והדומה להן מן הדברים אצל ההמון ואצל החכמים ויבינו החלק המעשיי מן הפילוסופיה, אז היו מבינים אם החכמים ז"ל חכמים אם לא, והיה מתבאר להם ענין דבריהם


The second group are also many, and they are the ones who saw or heard the words of the Chachomim and understood them literally and thought that the Chachomim didn't catch on to it, except for the simple explanation of the matter,

They come to trip them up, and disgrace them, and emit slander on what there is nothing to slander. They mock the words of the Chachomim and their intelligence which is more pure than themselves, and that they are actually foolish ignoramuses of deficient intelligence, fools in the general sense (?) to the point that they wouldn't grasp any scholarly teaching at all; most of the ones who fall into this confusion are those who relate to the wisdom of medicine and waste their time on the constellations, since in their mind they are wise and clever in their own eyes, and sharp and philosopic


How far they are from the humanity of the true wise men and philosophers; but they are more foolish than the first sect and surpass them in gullibility, and this is the cursed sect because they retort on great and exalted people whose wisdom has been proven to the Sages and these fools, if they would toil in wisdom until they knew how it is proper to arrange and write these things in the G-dly wisdom and the like, for the masses and for the scholars, and they would understand the practical side of the philosophy, then they would understand whether the Chazal were sages or not, and their words would become clearly undertood to them.
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TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 13 2007, 9:11 am
Motek wrote:
TammyTammy wrote:

Which is hearsay at best. I suppose you'd give equivelant credence to the the Greeks who claimed to be descended from the heroes of the Trojan War, who also received from their parents an account of the fall of Troy and how the gods intervened?


Hearsay? I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. When 2-3 millions people tell the next generation what they witnessed, that's not hearsay. To compare that to unwitnessed claims is no comparison.

What makes something acceptable to a beis din or not is irrelevant here, because there are many laws about evidence in a beis din that don't exactly follow what we would consider logic. For example, if 100 people testify to something and 2 people contradict it, then it's considered a deadlock. So what? That has nothing to do with how you and me make our decisions about what is reliable.


Your last point is correct -- we're not truly dealing with evidentiary laws. Nonetheless, I'm still going to maintain that it is hearsay -- if you knew of millions of people who witnessed Matan Torah -- that would be one thing -- but you don't know them. You know of some people who have told it from other people (and who knows if they didn't embellish details along the way) and so on.

To give a more recent example: I personally saw the Twin Towers come down with my own eyes (I was a block and a half away). So did lots of other people who were in downtown Manhattan that day (I'm purposely excluding people who saw it on television). I can personally testify that the towers came down on Sept. 11, 2001 and how they came down.

A friend of mine may not have seen it. But there were plenty of eyewitnesses that are still around and can still be questioned as to the events of the day. If I tell them about it, it is technically heresay... but there are so many corroborating witnesses that can be brought to her story that it can be easily proved.

100 years from now, however, people will still know of the events of Sept. 11, 2001. There will still be plenty of corroborating evidence in the form of video tape, contemporary accounts of the day, etc. But there will likely be no eyewitnesses left at that point. As such, anyone who testifies to it *on the basis of* "my parents told me," is engaged in heresay. That's not to say that Sept. 11 didn't happen, of course... but to say that testimony of that sort would be invalid in just about any court.... including Bais Din.

But, as you say, this is all beside the point. We're not dealing with evidentiary rules.

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As HR pointed out earlier, you can't command someone to know something.


And the Rambam didn't know what HR knows? Do you hear what you're saying?

It's not about my personal feelings about your mitzva observance either, that's not an appropriate remark IMO.


I hear what I'm saying. You still can't command someone to *know* something. If you have some method by which I can *know* that God exists, please tell it to me. I can posit that He exists, I feel it, and I think that the probability is extremely high that He does. I'd even put my life on the line for it. But I still don't *know* it. Please tell me how you know it for 100% certainty.

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TammyTammy wrote:

The bottom line is that we, ourselves, are not eyewitnesses to the events, and any tradition that we have from our parents on the subject is heresay and would not stand up in any court (including Bais Din).

even if I grant you that Moshe gave over the Torah to Yehoshua in front of millions, that does not validate the rest of the chain


Science (which you greatly respect as apparent in other discussions) deals with facts. A fact is considered any event or phenomenon testified to by witnesses, especially where the evidence is identical and comes from witnesses of varied interests, education, social background etc.


Actually science deals with theory and hypotheses. It does NOT deal with facts. But we're not dealing with science here... we're dealing with history, so let's not confuse the issue. Whether or not Mattan Torah occurred is a function of history, not science.

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Where there is such evidence, it is accepted as fact which is undeniable, even if it does not agree with a scientific theory. This is the accepted practice in science, even where are several reliable witnesses, and certainly scores of them, hundreds and thousands.


We're not dealing with science, we're dealing with history.

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Mattan Torah was a fact witnessed by millions of people, all of whom reported it to its minutest detail, accurately, for all the Jewish people stood at Sinai and witnessed it.


To it's minutest detail? Can you tell me what color robe Nachshon ben Aminadav was wearing that day?

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We know that this is a fact because millions of Jews in our day accept it as such, because they receive it as such from their own parents, and these millions in turn received the evidence from the previous generation, and so on, in an uninterrupted chain of transmitted evidence from millions to millions of witnesses, generation after generation, back to the original millions of witneses who saw the event with their own eyes.


It was transmitted *exactly* the same way from one generation to the next? Every parent in every generation told it over to their children in *exactly* the same way? Not a single detail of the event was ever altered in a single re-telling at any time? It's completely impossible that anyone somewhere along the way may have exaggerated a detail or two, as often happens in mythical stories? Heck, by the time of the Gemara, they weren't even sure what *date* Matan Torah happened on -- there is a dispute as to whether it was on the sixth of Sivan or the seventh. Please don't tell me that it was faithfully passed down in every detail from father to son unchanged for thousands of years -- it's just not possible.

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Among these original witnesses there were many who were familiar with the sciences of those days. There were philosophers and thinkers, as well as ignorant and uneducated people, women and children of all ages. Yet all of them reported the event and phenomenon connected with it without contradiction to each other.


How do you know that? If what you're saying is true, then there can never be two contradicting midrashim about Matan Torah, no two facts in anyone's account can possibly differ. Obviously that's not the case.

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Such a fact is certain indisputable. There is no other fact which can match it for evidence and accuracy. To deny such a fact is anything but scientific.


Anything I eyewitness is certainly far more credible than something handed down orally through the filters of thousands of people and hundreds of generations.

Tammy
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TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 13 2007, 9:14 am
amother wrote:
Tammy, you said you accept historical events such as George Washington being the first president, etc., as fact, because we have many sources to verify his existence and his actions, not just one. But if we apply the same skepticism toward George Washington as you seem to be applying toward the events surrounding Matan Torah, we can debunk him too, I am sure!! All of those documents were forgeries, for all we know! The so-called "primary sources" that corroborate his existence are biased, or fabricated, or misunderstandings, or just plain delusional! His face on the dollar bill.... just some artist's fantasy! So why do we accept that he lived at all, that he was the first president of the United States? It's all hearsay. WE weren't there. WE have no proof. WE have to rely on faith alone. We can't trust our own history, our own tradition. Nothing is for certain... we should really tell history students that while we BELIEVE George Washingon existed, we cannot KNOW this for sure..............


Can we know for *sure* that Washington existed? No. I grant you that it's possible that all the evidence for his existence is faked. But the odds on it are so remote, the conspiracy necessary to create it so large, that it's extremely, extremely, extremely (I can't put enough extremelys in this sentence) that it's a fake and a fraud. The odds on Washington having existed are better than 99.9999999999999999%.

Mattan Torah, OTOH, has only one source of information -- that's it - one.

Tammy
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TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 13 2007, 9:17 am
Motek wrote:
HindaRochel wrote:
1. You can't command someone to know something. Period. Rambam was a great deal wiser than me; great. I accept that. You still can't command someone to know something.


The Rambam thinks you can. You think you can't. And your Torah source is?


So, tell me how to know.

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There doesn't exist this unbroken chain that you are talking about.


Tell me when the chain broke.


You're the one asserting this chain exists. The burden of proof is on you to document it.

Tammy
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TammyTammy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 13 2007, 9:23 am
shalhevet wrote:
shalhevet wrote:


The Torah disagrees with you. The pasuk says
וידעת היום והשבות אל לבבך כי ד' הוא א' בשמים ממעל...
And you shall KNOW today ... that Hashem is G-d in the heavens above and the earth beneath. There is no other.

We have an obligation to KNOW about G-d's existence, not just to believe.


Why do you have to go back as far as the Rambam? I brought this pasuk a few pages ago! (This isn't for Tammy, who thinks there are pesukim in the Torah which were only for that generation, and don't apply to us - it's for the rest of the posters in the discussion).


Hold on! I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

What I said was that there are some pesukim that only deal with that particular place and time. I never said that it is a general rule. If so, then I'd obviously hold that the mitzvos don't apply -- and clearly I don't hold that way.

But it is indisputable that there *are* portions of the Torah that had applicability for their particular time and place. A prime example are the portions that deal with the miluim -- the inauguration of the Mishkan. These rituals were carried out at that time and then never again. And I posited that the word "hayom" in the pasuk that you quoted could possibly have the same limited application.

But don't expand my position to something that I never said or implied.

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ספר החינוך מצוות כה:
להאמין שיש לעולם א-לה אחד, שהמציא כל הנמצא ומכחו וחפצו היה כל מה שהוא ושהיה ושיהיה עדי עד, וכי הוא הוציאנו מארץ מצרים ונתן לנו את התורה. שנ' בתחילת נתינת התורה "אנכי ד' א' אשר הוצאתיך מארץ מצרים'" וגו'. ופרושו כאילו אמר: תדעו ותאמינו שיש לעולם א-לה, כי מלת "אנכי" תורה על המציאות. ואשר אמר "אשר הוצאתיך" וכו' לומר . שלא יפתה לבבכם לקחת ענין צאתכם מעבדות מצרים ומכות מצרים דרך מקרה, אלא דעו, שאנכי הוצאתי אתכם בחפץ ובהשגחה, כמו שהבטיח לאבתינו אברהם יצחק ויעקב.
...
ואם יזכה לעלות במעלות החכמה ולבבו יבין ובעיניו יראה במופת נחתך, שהאמנה הזאת שהאמין אמת וברור,אי אפשר להיות דבר בלתי זה, אז יקים מצות עשה זה מצוה מן המבחר....


Quote:

Sefer haChinuch Mitzva 25
To believe that the world has one G-d, who created everything and everything came into being through His wish, and He was and will be forever, and that He took us out of Egypt and gave us the Torah. As it says at the beginning of the giving of the Torah "I am the L-rd, your G-d who took you out of the land of Egypt..." and the explanation is as if it says that you should know and believe that the world has a G-d, since the word "I" shows the reality. And it says "who took you out..." to say that your heart shouldn't be tempted to take the exodus from slavery in Egypt and the plagues in Egypt as if they were random, but know - that I took you out of Egypt willingly and with Divine Providence, as He promised our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....

and if he merits climbing the rungs of wisdom
, and his heart understands, and his eyes will see the wonders, that the belief he believes is true and clear, nothing else is possible, then he will fulfil this positive mitzva in the best possible way..."

(my translation)

So Tammy and HindaRochel, I am still waiting for your sources to back you up against all these pesukim and rishonim.
Until then we can only daven that you merit climbing the rungs of wisdom...


There is nothing to dispute. I don't need a Torah source to tell me that you can't command someone to know something. Tell me how you *can* command someone to know something. Tell me how you *know* what you know.

Tammy
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 13 2007, 10:19 am
TammyTammy wrote:
on! I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

What I said was that there are some pesukim that only deal with that particular place and time. I never said that it is a general rule. If so, then I'd obviously hold that the mitzvos don't apply -- and clearly I don't hold that way.

But it is indisputable that there *are* portions of the Torah that had applicability for their particular time and place. A prime example are the portions that deal with the miluim -- the inauguration of the Mishkan. These rituals were carried out at that time and then never again. And I posited that the word "hayom" in the pasuk that you quoted could possibly have the same limited application.
But don't expand my position to something that I never said or implied.



Tammy, do you really think there is even a remote possibility that the statement of Hashem hu ho'Elokim concerning which it says V'yadaata hayOM has a limited application to that or any particular time?!!

In any case V'yadaata HaYom means something much more profound, and impossible to consider time-limited, as indeed the 6 mitzvos temidiyos are not: It means it should be CLEAR TO YOU AS DAY that Hashem hu ho'elokim. Which brings us back to the point that Knowing that Hashem exists,is one thing, and knowing that that Hashem, hu -He is - ho'elokim is quite another. Both are a matter of knowing, as clearly as it is clear to you that is is day.
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