What is Considered a Nice Wage In Eretz Yisroel?

creativemommyto3

Tue, Sep 04 2007, 5:33 pm

rachel19977 wrote:

arita430 wrote:

breslov wrote:

Gefilte fish?
Ha.
When I serve fish for shabbos, its tuna fish. At least a 5th of the price of gefilte...

If you go to the fish store and buy half a kilo of ground bakala for 15 shekel. 4 cans of tuna which is 640 grams is about the same price. I am sure that you add something to the tuna to make it tasty. I add 3 eggs , some matzo meal (bread crumbs - which I just learnt that you could put stale bread into the food processor) 3 tablespoons of sugar, a teaspoon of salt and half a teaspoon of pepper. I just started grating carrot into it too. I don't know if you calculate the energy (electric bill/gas bill)that it costs, but it's nice for shabbos though. I hope I am not insulting you. Oh , I also cook it with an onion and a carrot or two.

aRita430,
let me get this straight, you buy half a kilo ground bakala, add 3 eggs, some matzo meals/stale bread, 3 tablespoon of sugar, salt, pepper,

grated carrot? And then what? Bake? Or in pot with a sauce? Or it's like a kugel? Or fry with a onion and carrot?

In a pot with water. You make it like you would make meatballs only with fish. The original recipe is in the spice and spirit. If you wanna splurge you could make it half bakala and half nilos for not much more.

mimivan

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 12:46 am

I want to revive this thread, because I'm finding the chesbon is just not adding up...

Reading the last posts, I remember one poster called 6,000 shekel a "nice" wage and I recall Shalhevet said 10,000 shekel is far above what the regular wage is here. So let's say someone who is doing unusually well is making 8,000 shekel, perhaps combined income with husband working full time and wife working part-time.. (BTW, our combined wages are not 8,000 since dh is in collel and school, but I am using it as an example of a "really nice wage")

To obtain this really nice wage of 8,000 shekel, the wife needs to work, so she needs to spend 700-1,200 for daycare for the baby. She has, let's say, two other kids in gan, and for a hareidi gan in our area, that is another 700 shekel each.

gan/cheder tuition and childcare combined is now 2,100 at least. Okay, this takes them down from a really nice wage of 8,000 to a nice wage of 6,000..

But as we know in the hareidi world b'h people usually have a lot more than three kids. With 5 kids, the misgeret expenses (tuition, childcare, yeshiva etc.. would be around 3,500! Half of the nice wage. And 10 kids? there would be only 1,000 shekel left of the really nice wage.

So how does this add up? I just don't know how on earth people manage, especially collel families with 10 kids? The income doesn't increase with every kid...so do people just not pay tuition, live off tzedaka (while working full time) or what????

really want to know....

mimivan

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 1:47 am

creativemommyto3 wrote:

I don't know about kollel here except for the fact that my neighbor lives on her CC. But then again we are too at this point b/c we are paying off gemachim for our downpayment. I guess I am not a spoiled american who's parents lay out the money like the israeli parents.

I would love to know what the typical electric bill for a family with three kids is,also water and food. I really have to set myself a budget and really think of how I spend.

I guess it is "lucky" for me that I can't have any more kids . I only have three and they eat like birds. I WISH they would eat more! One bag of noodles will last me a good few days b/c they eat a few bites and then they are finished.

Sometimes I can't stand being so tight and I splurge on a cookbook and the like.

creativemommy3

1. What's CC?

2. "guess I am not a spoiled american who's parents lay out the money like the israeli parents." Do you mean the American parents lay out money or the Israeli parents lay out money?

3. I don't know about the electric bill...dh handles this (maybe it would be better for sb if I did!)

4. I also splurge occasionally (I splurging on falafel was a mistake because I got my purse stolen...Hashem was trying to tell me something)
You can find a lot of really great recipes for free on the internet and here. But if you feel like splurging in the near future, I'd recommend the Spice and the Spirit Lubavitch cookbook. It is packed with stuff.

btw I find that almost every family in my neighborhood gets significant help from their parents (we don't because my mother does not believe in doing this and my MIL has very little money). I guess this is quite common. But in Israel, I don't think the average 50-60 year old has so much money either, especially if they have several (even grown) kids...

Imaonwheels

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 3:13 am

I am glad this is not in the Israeli section as chutznikim have this terrible picture of the Israeli financial situation. They think well you live in a charedi area of Y-m, buy all your clothes in the mall or midrechov, have meat everyday , 2 cars or one nice new or minivan and must save like in America. That these are normal Israeli expenses.

We after 24 years have gotten to 7,000/mo. regular from the store and I make small money on the side giving shiurim or writing articles, translating, etc.

We own our own home (4 1/2 rms on a 500 sq.m. plot). We have made 3 weddings and 5 BM's. We have another BM in a few mos. and ds is in shidduchim. We give small help to my married children when they are tight. My oldest single son is doing bagrut and then will be getting his degree in addition to hopefully getting married. We don't have a car but not because we can't afford one. DH is frightened to buy one as I have the only license. 2 out of 3 of my married children have cars.

We eat better than average because we own the mecolet that sells everything. Groceries, veg, meat and fish. In addition, ds #1 is the agent for a company that delivers meat, fish and frozen food to our area. We have meat during the week if we want.

The highest I ever paid for chinuch was 3,000 when my 2 oldest were in dorm and I had 4 in TT. Even as a single parent I was never given a discount. Soon that will change as next year b"h I will have 3 in yeshiva bringing just tuition for the 3 of them close to 4,000.

Why is it easy for us to live on this amt?

1. We NEVER made the mistake of renting. If someone is paying $800/mo rent then he can pay a generous mortgage, especially if they are olim. We rented 4 mos. to give us time to find a place and never again. Now we have neither rent or mashganta.

2. Life does not begin and end in Y-m, including for men who learn. We considered it early on and did not want Ir haKodesh to turn into fights with the Iryya, and all of those other mundane things. Today I go there to learn, teach, visit the kotel, etc, I am there 3 times/wk. Living costs can be reduced drastically (more than half) by checking out one of the many lovely communities that are not Y-m or Bnai Brak. My dd just moved to Elad because in Y-m they had a cramped, stuffy apartment for $450. 2 1/2 rm down 5 stairs, a half basement. For the same money in Elad they have 3 huge BRs and 2 mirpesot and a Shabbos elevator for the same price. The center of the country pays higher salaries than Y-m as well. Living in a charedi yishuv is better still as you have all of the benefits and very few of the disadvantages of the city. In the city not every neighborhood has the same arnona. In Y-m check what the situation is for your neighborhood ahead of time.

3. When I made aliyah there were nearly no frozen foods with a good hechsher or at all. Everybody made everything totally from scratch. There were no cake mixes or other conveniences. If supersol had imported they were priced ridiculously. I the spoiled American learned how to make soup w/o mix, cakes and challah from scratch. Nothing in a cookin bag. Meals have always been some kind of salad (nobody here likes cooked veg except potato), some kind of filler (houseful of men here) like lukshen, potato, sweet potato, etc and a protein main dish based on meat fish egg or cheese. Or all together like soup, lasagna, casseroles, etc. We are good eaters here and 3 teenage boys are like locusts. Dessert is only for Shabbos, we are large enough already.

Today I use frozen products a little because I have to make more smaller meals now that I, dh and my youngest (12 1/2) are the only permanent residents of our house now. It makes it easier to take parts out. Also because I am now WAHM as opposed to years of being just SAHM.

4. Shopping. The most expensive is not always the best. Baby tshirts and basic layette from Shilav or such is money in the garbage can. Like spending $10 for a paper diaper - overkill. Whatever you don't want to pass down can be bought at adequate (but not top) quality at bazaar strauss. Do not delude yourself into thinking that boys pants will be passed down. Your kids will be Israeli and all boys destroy pants.Shoes I buy only the best, As my boys' feet quit growing I buy them Blanstones (sp?) like their older brothers have. They can be worn for building work or to shul on Shabbos and are well made. Just too expensive (550 sh/pr) to buy for kids who will outgrow them. Sport shoes I buy new balance and the like. I and dh live in crocs. I never go near a mall, the Mashbir or other places that bloat prices. I buy for everyone and need the boys only for trying on suits. Geula is my main center for clothes except for me. I am unfortunately a too large person and have only 2 stores where I can really shop. Other stores call 44 lg size. Very Happy

One is very cheap for every day and one is very expensive for dressy clothes. 3rd store for lingerie.

There are gemachs for everything. Often you get a garment and a mitzvah as the proceeds go to tzedaka. There is a sheitel gemach in Ezras Torah as well. In Israel even people very well off (frum) use the gemachim because of the combination of saving money, doing a mitzvah and doing bal taschis. The idea of throwing everything out when good is so not Jewish.

5. Furnishing. The smartest is to buy inexpensive and replace pieces with quality one at a time. To furnish for a new couple you can get a good BR set and finish out in IKEA. It is a big mistake to buy an expensive couch and DR set when raising children is ahead of you, trust me. Grandchildren are hard enough and you usually know they are coming and rest up for them. I bought dh a new beautiful expensive bed for his BD. I had it made. My gs colored all over it with marker a week later. DD b"h knew how to get it off. I have bright electric pink hiliter on our 2 toned wood expensive DR table. Just decided to open my briefcase and color on computer paper w/o putting anything underneath. That one was ds when he was 10.

6. Savings. In Israel there is no need to save more than say 300 sh/mo. I have been putting aside 200 sh for years. I carried my side of 3 weddings. I totally made 3 BM's as a single parent and paid ds's tuition for his bagrut. These are my children from my 1st marriage and dh gives very little from the store income. We have made 2 BM of our own and our baby is BM in Adar. No major debt remains from these simchas. I still have more money in my pikdonot. We also go on vacation, dh and I and the boys go to sleep away camp.

creativemommyto3

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 3:21 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

What do you eat ?Where do you go for the cheapest prices?

shalhevet

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 3:31 am

mimivan wrote:

Once the kids are 3 you pay a lot less in tuition, so it doesn't keep multiplying. The girls are free once they are in an iriya gan/ BY, and the boys are still cheaper. A cheder does not take double for two, triple for 3 etc. So even if you pay more for yeshiva/ sem you are not paying those amounts for 10 children at once.

Imaonwheels

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 3:37 am

And of course. with the exception of $500 we got from my Dad when making aliya, we never got one penny from my parents. DH's cousin used to give $500/mo for 2-3 yrs to help w/my nephew who gets no bituach leumi and we must pay 100% of everything for him as he is not Israeli and we can't make him one as we don't have legal custody.

The help I give to my children is a crib or high chair. Clothes for a YT. New shoes at season change. No major expenses like rent or food. I will do a 50 sh shopping or leave something on the mecolet bill if we stay with them and eat. When I make Shabbos or YT with my kids we split the cooking and I usually make the meat and fish as our meat is twice the price of that eaten by 2 of my married kids. DS and I eat the meat he sells.

I made myself a rule and the rav defended me to the gabai tzedaka when I was alone. I never save money by going down in yiddishkeit. I continued to light the same number of candles w/oil, buy only shechita Lubavitch for the home (I also eat Rubin and Landa out), mehudar 4 minim, wooden sukkah, etc. HaShem gives to you as you give to Him. Maalin b'kodesh v'lo moridin and temim tihiyu im HaShem Elokechem were my rules. Privately the rav told me this was not chayav. When I told him that I know but do not feel right any other way he gave me full backing.

When I sold my apt on the 1st fl and bought my 1st house in Rechovot the rav cosigned my loan. After my divorce he saw 1st hand how I handle money. We do treat ourselves and always have. If kids (and dh's) feel oppressed living in a frum home they won't want to. And kids go off from this lack of joy. DH insistes I get a full meal on my long days in Y-m in a restaurant. We went to the Kinar for Simchas Torah leaving all 7 kids, 3 spouses and 4 gc in our house to make a young people's chag. I left them the meat, of course, and they all have keys to the store but the 3 young ones. Joyful, but not extravagant, living is as necessary as paying the electric bill.

Imaonwheels

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 4:26 am

Quote:

What do you eat ?Where do you go for the cheapest prices?

As I said, in food we cheat as we own a totally stocked mecolet and our ds is an agent for our meat company. But it wasn't alway that way.

Before the store we had meat only on Shabbos in the summer. In the winter we make a lot of soup and meat soup makes it a more hearty and healthy meal. I found a huge pot of chicken soup makes little kids and school age calmer. The veg is in the soup, no pressure.

Veg, not in shmitta, is def cheapest in the shuk. However, not every place has a shuk. Don't go to the badatz booth. Get keren hamaasros and maaser it yourself. Know what fruits can be orla and buy only those in the place with the hechsher if it is more expensive. I also do not buy Arab produce and this makes my veg more expensive. This is a major difference as your family grows. Veg should be what you majorlyt live on. Salads, soups, 500 ways to make potato, etc.

Meat I do not save on very much. Our hecherim our the most expensive - Chabad, Landa and Rubin. We don't eat others. We will eat less when tight but not change. When I was alone I occaisionally made milkic Shabbos and the halacha allow for one who really cannot afford. We sell meat we don't eat because the rav said that there are families that would not eat meat or c"v give into the yetzer hara if there was no meat that they could afford. We have 3-4 really poor families where the dh is very limited in his ability to work for health reasons.

Milkics are mostly the same place everywhere. Places like Alef and others are trying to sell milk real cheap and are angering both mecolets and Tenuva, and it will soon blow up in their face. Tnuva is giving us strong promises that it WILL stop. Milk ic is already subsidized. At regular price nobody does anything but lose on milk. They are selling it at a large loss to bring people in. Tenuva will talk to them for only awhile before giving them a zbang.

Believe it or not, shopping in the mecolet has been found by many tzedaka organizations to be cheaper than going to Alef, Bar kol, etc. In mecolets people buy what they need. In the large tzarchaniot there are many impulse items prominently displayed and charedim are pretty non sophisticated when it comes to marketing tricks. In net shekels pweople spend more per month when they shop in a super. You pay for those conveniences. I think the exception is Bnai Brak, which seems to me to have small awful mecolot not run with the charedi population in mind. I would love to have the money to set up a really good mecolet there.

Cereal by us is cheerios in summer or oatmeal. No shugi, bugi and all of that garbage. We drink water and sechut natural juice. When we had less and the kids were home I made B&D. We have a few bottles of whatever the kids want on Shabbos except SuperDrink and other such garbage. Oneg Shabbos also has its limits. B"H they also don't like it.

Little things that add up: No sliced or grated cheese. Sliced bread only if you need to make a lot of sandwiches. Few ready made salads, except for hummus, which is a real potchke to make from scratch and not expensive. Chatzilim, techina and matbucha are very easy to make from scratch. Fruit for nosh, esp raisins which can be bought by weight. Large families can buy hotdogs, tivoll, fish sticks or patties, ketzitzot and such in what is call tipazoret - loose. It is a large box w/o the colorful wrapping sold to stores and mosdos. We will order entire boxes for customers. We have 3 families in the yishuv with 12 kids. This is their regular way of buying. We open a box in the store and put half of it 6 pieces in nylon and the rest we let people take how much they want. That means they can take 2 k in a regular bag or 2 pieces if they live alone. The 6 pc bag is good for small families, 1-2 kids. We also buy borekas like this for people making a simcha. A big fridge, and extra freezer for lg families, saves much money.

Using the microwave can save you alot in time, gas and calories. I use it to make lasagna and kugel if it is just for us. I use silicon to bake which goes into the oven or the micro. Cerramic also does.

Most charedi meat deliverers have a family box with different cuts. They weigh it aqll together at one price and it comes out cheaper. Young couples and small families can buy together in tipazoret and split the box. If you can do w/o processed, do.

Fish - I make nilus for Shabbos every 2 weeks when my boys come from yeshiva. Otherwise dh is happy with tuna. I will surprise him every once in a while with 100g lox. Before I would do it on his BD or YT. Now I will do it stam on mik night or other times I want to cheer him up. I B"H do not like it. We have patties and I will buy sticks for the gc because the babies seldom eat a whole patty and the sticks are easier for them to hold.

I treat myself to cheese and beer. We both have a weakness for quality chocholate. That can also be bought in tipazoret in the shuk in bags that look like dog food, good Belgian chocholate with a hechsher. We sell it in small nylon bags we make up ourselves.

Remember that yellow cheese costs more per kilo than chicken or cheaper hechsher meat. Shnitzel is more/kg but you aren't paying anything for bones. They can be made up as shnitle and eaten on a bagette for a weekday lunch or cut up and put in stir fry. I put 1 small per person with lots of veg in my wok.

Again -tipazoret. Rice in 5 kg bags, bicuits in 2 kg boxes, Lukshen and couscous can also be bought in lg bags

Marion

Wed, Nov 28 2007, 10:02 pm

Tamiri wrote:

I am amazed at the claim that you can "make it" on 8000 nis. My rent alone is 3500 NIS for a home in the Shomron. And lest you say it's cheaper to buy: not when you have money "growing" in the bank, and while renting there are no maintenance fees etc. For us, I believe it's a good deal while we decide if we ever want to commit ourselves to buying.
One kid in 7th grade costs over 1200 NIS/month for tuition plus bussing.
Groceries are close to 4000 NIS/month.
Electricity is between 800-1200 for two months, depending on the month.
Arnona is 800 NIS and change.
Water is around 300 NIS for two months, including watering the garden.
Braces for one kid over 400 NIS per month for 20 months.
Have we even started the month yet?
Our car is a company car which, while it costs, leaves us free with gas and maintenance and we use the car a lot.
I always think I am saving and then I read posts like the ones here....

I think A LOT depends on where you are in life. We DO make it on 8000 shekel a month, so it's doable. However:
1. We don't have a car. Our bus passes are paid for by our employers (that's actually the law), but we do pay deductions on them.
2. We don't have tuition yet (although we do have daycare, and now will have daycare for 2...still have to see how that pans out)
3. Your electric bill sounds really high! Our average bill is between 200-300 shekel for 2 months!
4. Groceries also; I'm assuming you are feeding more people than I am because my groceries are about 1400 shekel a month.
5. Our mortgage and accompanying payments are about 2700 shekel a month.

Of course, we would net an extra 100 shekel a month if I never used the office's meal program...but I'd have to spend that money on groceries or not eat, so I figure 100 shekel in taxes on a hot lunch for a month isn't such a bad deal.

shalhevet

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 2:52 am

Marion wrote:

2. We don't have tuition yet (although we do have daycare, and now will have daycare for 2...still have to see how that pans out)

Next year you will have 'medurag' gan for your older one, which goes according to income, but will probably be much cheaper (although only till 1pm)

Quote:

3. Your electric bill sounds really high! Our average bill is between 200-300 shekel for 2 months!

Our bill is like Tamiri's and we don't even have AC and we have a dud shemesh. I think most of it is washing and drying clothes, because I don't use other appliances much. In the winter it is certainly over 1000 shekels for two months (incl dud chashmal and heaters - not yet). So I imagine family size determines quite a lot here.

Quote:

4. Groceries also; I'm assuming you are feeding more people than I am because my groceries are about 1400 shekel a month.

Our groceries (8 people) are also 3-4,000 shekels a month. About 2000 shekels for Bar Kol (food, cleaning supplies, milk products etc) plus meat, fish and fruit and veg, and some milk products in the makolet.

Quote:

Of course, we would net an extra 100 shekel a month if I never used the office's meal program...but I'd have to spend that money on groceries or not eat, so I figure 100 shekel in taxes on a hot lunch for a month isn't such a bad deal.

Sounds like a good deal to me.

Do you all know that the tzarchaniyot are ten or twenty agorot cheaper on each milk product? For a family that's a big monthly difference.

Tamiri

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 3:06 am

We are an "older" and nice sized family of 7, with only 6 around most of the time. I try hard to keep the grocery bill under 4000 NIS. When we arrived here a little over 4 years ago I was able to stay under 3000 NIS. First, I was very frugal because I did not understand the system yet, and second: groceries have gone waaaaay up over these years.
Our electric bill is high because we need lots of hot water, we have a sep. freezer, I use the electric dryer about 2x/week. 2 computers running. A lot of lights on Shabbat (big house). We use the a/c a lot during the summer, try not to use heat too much in winter but sometimes there is no choice.
My brother's company (hi tech) had to fire a woman yesterday, who had been with the company for 7 years. Her salary was 25K. I am used to seeing dual income families in that bruto range where I live. At least I think so, based on how they live. We live on just one salary (besides the little business I started a couple of weeks ago, selling Hidurit Shabbat Glass candles and the oil that goes with them). It used to be much more doable but it's getting hard, if we want any extras. We'll prob be looking at another 800 NIS/month for gan next year, if we decide to send our youngest, who will be close to 4 yo.
I am the wild card: I don't work outside the home, and if I did, we'd have more income....
I think my life is less expensive in some ways than it is in town, because there are very few temptations. We have to drive to do anything that costs money, including shopping for clothes.