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Censorship of non-Jewish Books
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Do you/would you take your children to the public library? (or let them go themselves)
No, I bring books home for them from the public library.  
 7%  [ 3 ]
Yes, no restrictions.  
 10%  [ 4 ]
Yes, and I check to see what they're reading.  
 65%  [ 25 ]
No, I don't want them reading secular books.  
 15%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 38



Mandy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2006, 12:29 pm
Regarding the list of books :

1. As mentioned previously, all the books mentioned will be completed within a few weeks by a good reader.

2. The books mentioned are all on very different levels of vocabulary and age and level, so what a first grader will be willing to read and listen to is very different than the same for a fifteen year old.

3. You have to consider that you may not have this problem at all. I work with kids who don't read well and the most important factor in their difficulties is lack of exposure. If you limit your child to reading only a certain genre, be prepared for her not to read well and not to enjoy reading. To be honest, it takes way more books that you have listed just for a child to build up a good sight vocabulary, which you will not get from having her read "memoirs". She will probably have many other interests, though.
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hisorerus




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2006, 12:34 pm
Mandy, I come from a family of big readers. Trust me, we'll build a vocabulary from whatever we have. One 6-year old started off slogging his way through The Storyteller. He can read anything now.

Some of the books mentioned, and others not mentioned, are simple enough to learn reading on. If they don't love to read, that's OK, but I don't think giving them unrestricted access to the library will change that. I think the biggest effect will be seeing ME reading.
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morningstar




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2006, 2:52 pm
How are your daughter's Hebrew language skills?
Because comfort and enjoyment in reading Hebrew greatly expands the number of choices available.
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amother


 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2006, 7:54 pm
First of all, can you explain what damage occured because of the books you have read?

Second, I agree that having appropriate levels of books is important for language and literacy development. I think it makes it harder for a child to become a good reader if he is reading the wrong books. A child who is not enjoying what he is reading or is not fluent in his reading is unable to THINK about what he is reading because he is so busy just trying to get through the words. Perhaps, it is not a big goal for you that your children should be good readers? (I don't mean that disrespectfully, but maybe this just isn't a priority for you- maybe your focus is on other things?) And my definition of a good reader is someone who who is able to and enjoys reading different genres, is able to express deeper thinking about the books they read both in writing and through talking, are able to think critically about what they are reading, and are able to use reading a tool for learning, with the goal in mind that as adults they will be able to continue using reading as a lifelong tool for learning and enjoyment.
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Crayon210




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2006, 8:48 pm
Biographies are good too; ArtScroll has published a lot, there's also the biography of R' Shneur Zalman of Liadi...also some good Holocaust stuff.
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zigi




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 08 2006, 11:51 pm
good luck hisorerus I hope that it will work,
I am an avid reader I would read anything that I would get my hands on. my mother had guidelines for me, no trashy novels, or junk as she called it she wanted me to read classics, she didn't like the fact that I read nancy drew and babysitters club books. but my friends read them, and I took them out anyway. I definatly see the need to not allow non jewish books. some of the books that are in the childrens section should be only for adults. I'm not talking about teenage novels some of them are good but others talk about teenage pregnancy. also sometimes all it takes is one book to get a taste of something not good. like romance novels. I read one, it had a nice story and only a page of not tznious things, then it led to another... and some of them are a lot more graphic.
the part that you mentioned with kibud av vem, in real lifei wonder if it will work sometimes I did it dafka because I wasn't allowed to. but not being exposed to it, hope fully will help.
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leomom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 12:42 am
I have a daughter who is almost a teenager. I do let her read Jewish novels (but I check them first - there are some I don't like for various reasons), and we have gone through phases of getting books out of the library. When we do get library books, I push for non-fiction - science, history, how-to, etc. If my daughter wants to read fiction, she knows that most of the books are going to be vetoed but she will end up with *something*. I check ALL non-fiction AND fiction books carefully. Sometimes my husband checks them, too. (He has a knack for opening right to pages that are all about Yoshka, or that have boy-girl stuff!!) But in the end, my daughter ends up with a stack of approved books, often classics, or older novels (like from the 1950s or earlier) that tend to be very pareve. Since she is a voracious reader, she just devours books and she has read all of the books in our house over and over and over. She needs new stuff sometimes or she goes a little crazy.

She has been very accepting of the way we handle things - very respectful and almost appreciative!! - even though in reality her choices are quite restricted (although not compared to hisorerus' approach, I see that now!). What we have done is explained and reinforced for years now that books have to be kosher, just like food does. A library is like a supermarket and you have to check the books to make sure they're kosher! She is old enough now that she does some of her own "pre-checking" and will tell me, "I don't think you're going to approve this one, it's not so tznius" -- which she can tell because she sees that a boyfriend is mentioned in the blurb on the back, or whatever. So she is developing her own sense of some standards.

I also talk to her about making choices about what enters her mind through her eyes and ears... and how the input she lets in affects her neshama. I tell her that I want her neshama to be pure and holy! It's not so much that I need to "shelter" her from the content of the books (although in some cases I do actually need to shelter her), but more that I don't want her to put her thoughts and attention on something that is opposite of Torah.

Although she complains once in a while about our decisions about particular books, she has been agreeable overall and I think we have struck a good balance so that she won't feel like she has to sneak off and rebel in secret.

This is all the end result of some compromises my husband and I made over the years, and while we started off with much higher ideals, I am satisfied with the way this approach is working for us, and it feels like a healthy balance. Kids need to feel like they are having some kosher reading pleasure! They are kids!
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rivki




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 12:54 am
yy - I like your approach. I think it is much more reasonable and practical. I probably would have read less garbage if my parents were more flexible and showed me how(why) to select appropriate books. I think theother approach really encourages the "generational gap" and makes a child feel like her parents dont get it and will probably encourage sneakiness.
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leomom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 12:59 am
Thanks for saying so, Rivki - it works for us. I understand that everyone has different standards, though.
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hisorerus




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 2:40 am
The Maggid of Mezritch mentions that it's worse to read a book by an apikores than a book by a [gentile], because when you read a book you connect to the mind of the author.

The logical next step is, I'd rather have my children connect to the minds of the ideal authors.

Thank you for your post, yy, it was very inspiring.

Amother above, you feel that I may not care about the reading skills of my children. I assure you that I am a voracious reader, and it was genetic for me. I very seriously doubt I'm going to have any problem on that end. Every single one of my siblings, of all intelligence ranges and ages, love to read. I think that within my chosen group of books, most genres and styles are covered.

Of course, if my children are begging for more and there is no more, I can go through with the conversation I brought first, and allow vetted books that I would not want ideally.

I don't think critical thinking is learned from "entertainment" books, it's probably more likely learned from the deeper books in the categories I've chosen. My biggest worry would be on the limited number of "entertainment" style books, but by reading aloud, I think I could demonstrate that these books are enjoyable as well, although granted, not as light as Junie B. Jones, for example.
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hisorerus




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 2:44 am
Rivki, I hope that my willingness to compromise where necessary, as expressed in my first post, would prevent the need for sneakiness.

I don't think it's the RULES that encourage sneaking around them, but how they are made and enforced. Rules that are made with consideration and can be bent where necessary are much more likely to be followed, and without resentment.
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MOM222




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 2:48 am
hisorerus wrote:


I don't think a child need feel deprived because things are limited. Kosher food is limited, is that a Chinuch problem? Do you have kids running off to McDonalds Chas Veshalom because they say "you never let me eat anything"?

.


That's your mistake. Kosher food is not really limited. You can get great food- be it fast food, gourmet, almost everything you would need.
The selection of books you have is a lot less.

I have another problem with your approach.

When you put for your children such tight gates around them , you are doing all the work for them. As soon as she is away from you and she wants to read a book she will have a hard time making that choice of which book she sould read.

I used to go the the public library and my mother had full trust in all my siblings. We had a very good sense of right and wrong and we were able to choose a nice selection of books. A lot of it was historical fiction and science fiction. My mother went every so often and helped us choose.

Responsibility (in this case books) is something you learn it is not someone doing it for you.
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shalhevet




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 3:46 am
deleted

Last edited by shalhevet on Mon, Feb 20 2017, 7:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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PinkandYellow




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 5:34 am
Quote:
We have to teach our children to be moser nefesh for halacha and not that they should be making their own choices. (Do you let your kids run into the road so they can decide for themselves if it's dangerous)


This is not so. Our children have to be taught to make their own decisions. It's your job as a parent to show them how and also be michanech them in a way, so that when they do make their own choices (they will not always be tied to your apron strings) they make the right ones.

The same way you teach your child to read the label on food and decide that way if food is kosher you have to teach your child to self-censor his\herself with books.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 7:44 am
morningstar wrote:
How are your daughter's Hebrew language skills?
Because comfort and enjoyment in reading Hebrew greatly expands the number of choices available.


100% agree. However, so far, I haven't noticed my kids just picking up any of the myriad seforim that we have, just to enjoy reading something interesting. Of course that is my goal, but the language skills are not there yet, or maybe it's more the confidence.

Exposure to reading in seforim they do have, as my husband is usually seen with a sefer in front of him. He likes to whet our appetite by citing an excerpt, and then challenging us to read it to find out the rest .

Here's what I think: As long as they are satisfying their reading enjoyment in English, they won't gravitate to the books, or articles written in Hebrew, because it's so much more challenging being that it's not their first language.[Even if it's a close second, which it should be by the sheer volume of what they are (should be) learning. Unfortunately it's not a close second, because the volume of learning isn't so profuse. There is so much time wasted in classrooms and it's not funny. more about that another time.] The Hebrew that they know is more simplified. so, maybe there should be a transition stage of reading the books with nikkud.

My kids do feel comfortable reading in Yiddish, of which we have a few books, namely the "zichroinos" in Yiddish (Lubavitcher Rebbe's Memoirs), and a biography of the RamBam, Der Groiser Adler, and some other biography's of Tzaddikim, or storybooks (Dertzeil mir a maase - Storyteller in Yiddish).

There should be more required reading in lashon kodesh at a much younger age, for an introduction to the experience. Not the usual studies of text and meforshim, but book reports on some of the memoirs of the Chassidim from Russia (there are at least 10 that I can think of), or biographies of Tzaddikim, Sefer HaToldos of the Rebbeim, HaTomim in the original. also books of sippurim like those by Klapholtz, Zevin, Refoel Kahan.

Others can add recommendations.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 8:31 am
Some sippurim literature in Lashon Kodesh:
Otzar Aggados HaTorah
Sippurei Lamed Vov Tzaddikim Nistorim
Sippurei Eliyahu HaNovi
Sippurei haBaal Shem Tov
Sippurei Beis Din Shel Maaloh - all the preceding by R. Yisrael Klapholz
in Yiddish - Der Oitzar Agaddos fun Neviim U'kesuvim - Klapholtz

Yerushalayim Shel Maaloh - R. Menachem Getz

Sippurei Chassidim - R. Shlomo Y. Zevin


Otzar Sippurei Chabad (12 volumes)- R. Chanoch Glitzenshtein

Maaseh Avos - stories of Gedolei Yisroel on Pirkei Avos (menukad) - by G. Sofer (from Sapir publishing)
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 9:56 am
Yiddish books and Hebrew books will come way before any English books in my house (if I can help it Smile)
especially for the boys.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 10:16 am
MosheDovid'sMom wrote:
The same way you teach your child to read the label on food and decide that way if food is kosher you have to teach your child to self-censor his\herself with books.


Kashrus is quite a bit more complicated than that. If you want to make this comparison I would say certain specific products that your child knows you use, if they would find the identical product with the identical hechsher, you could rely on them to know what's what.

But not nec. a new product with that same hechsher. Or same product with different hechsher. Unless one is quite undiscriminating in hechsherim as well. For example, just because we will drink ginger-ale with a certain hechsher doesn't mean we will drink orange soda with the same hechsher.

Quote:
Our children have to be taught to make their own decisions.
Teaching a child to make decisions is a process which culminates when they are adult. A decision left up to a child of whether to wear the checked dress or the floral print (that you have already bought or helped her pick out) is not complex, but would you allow a ten year old to shop for clothes on her own or with friends, because we want to teach independence? Confused

Chinuch decisions are complex, and they are handled by the parents.

Even children's books reflect adult perspective and knowledge in their content. They aren't nec. the perspectives we want them to learn or know about.
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Mama Bear




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 10:23 am
My mother also always read and even censored the Judaica books she allowed us to read. Secular books were not even on the map. We always had enough judaica to read. Today with the mishpacha, spotlight, etc., teens have plenty to read.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Mar 09 2006, 10:26 am
GR wrote:
Yiddish books and Hebrew books will come way before any English books in my house (if I can help it Smile)
especially for the boys.


GR, what do you think about the English language children's books, like the ones from Merkaz, HaChai, Artscroll? Do you think, after reading those with them, they will be interested in reading Yiddish or LHK?

I used to translate them into Yiddish when reading to my older children. The younger ones, I fell back with that embarrassed .

But generally, the language you read in, is the one that motivates them to want to learn how to read, right? And since reading is introduced further down the line,(Alef Bais in kindergarten, kriah in Pre-1-A) it's a long time to wait. Confused I found that to be a problem.
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