Man Verbally attacked a mother for breastfeeding in Target

pause

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 4:48 pm

I agree with the woman. Nursing a baby is allowed to take place anywhere. Babies are dependent on their mothers for food and when they get hungry they need to be fed.

The amount of skin seen on most women these days, especially during the summer proves that it's not disgusting. Don't even try to convince me it is.

As Jewish women we have an obligation to cover up as best as we can, but that's not the point here.

sourstix, I don't care about the woman's lack of self-respect. Many people do many things I don't consider dignified and lacking self-respect in public. What's it my business? Who are you to tell this woman she *should* have more self-respect? I wouldn't eat while walking in the street because it shows a lack of self-respect. Does that mean nobody else is allowed to? And that if someone does, I would tell them they should have more self-respect??? Self-respect is exactly that: Respect a person has for him/herself. It's got zero to do with you.

Miri7

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 5:30 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I've seen that video, it is excellent. The nursing women got a LOT of verbal abuse, and some of it was extremely nasty. No one had a problem with cute girls in plunging necklines, though.

I think men just can't stand the idea that someone else is getting a breast, and they're not. They're jealous but they can't deal with it, so they sublimate and call it disgust instead.

I loved that video, too. The men were happy when the breasts were displayed for their viewing pleasure, but not when being used to feed a baby. Men who oppose public breastfeeding don't think breasts are disgusting. They just don't like when they're used for something other than mens's zexual pleasure.

ora_43

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 5:35 pm

Faigy86 wrote:

I'm not sure where you are getting that from. a breast is an organ of nurture. Just because as a society, we have sxualized it, why does that mean it is primarily a zxual organ?

"As a society"? Humans as a species view breasts as s-xual. There's research about this. I'm not saying every single man views breasts as s-xual in every context, but it's not just a question of society choosing what counts as a s-x organ and what doesn't.

ora_43

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 5:40 pm

Laiya wrote:

I think it's not about her body at all, it's about being nurturing. Breastfeeding represents nurturing (which it is, literally, as well as emotionally)

I think it's because breastfeeding is a bodily function that involves fluids some people see as gross.

I'm not saying they *should* see it as gross, but they do. (And honestly, even though I nursed my kids, I can kind of understand it to some small extent - if someone else's breast milk spilled on me, I'd definitely have a more visceral response than if juice spilled on me.)

It's like how people would be shocked and angered if a woman started urinating in public, even if she did so without hiking her skirt above the knee.

Raisin

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 6:04 pm

The Happy Wife wrote:

Yes, not all babies will nurse with covers but it can still be done without showing much at all. Some women do bare all when nursing and I really don't understand why that's necessary or appropriate. And yes, I have seen people completely show everything when nursing. So unnecessary.

I also nurse where I need to and not in a bathroom.

But you know urinating is also perfectly natural and not a shameful thing. Why do we only do it in private? I think there is dignity and modesty in being private and discreet with some thing. That doesn't mean not feeding a baby when needed it just means doing it in a dignified manner.

Men urinate in front of other men. Frum men go to mikva in public.

Ema of 5

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 6:15 pm

sourstix wrote:

im just gonna comment and then move on. I dont think she is being respectful to herself. why couldnt she just drape something over herself? common. just because you could doesnt mean you should.

I know a lot of people will be against my opinion but I stand by mine. I think people have lost their own dignity at this point.

I dont think its right that he verbally attacked her. I didnt listen I just looked at it without listening. so I dont know what he said. certainly she shouldnt be attacked.

I don't know about you, but I get extremely hot when I nurse. And I have never had a baby who would nurse while covered. So I do the best I can- I pul down my shirt to the baby's nose, and around on my side, and hope that everything is covered.

Laiya

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 6:23 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I don't think that's it.

The reaction is out of proportion. No one's asking them to taste expressed milk. It's extremely unlikely that you, as a fellow store patron, would actually see the milk, altogether. When I'm the one nursing, I usually don't see the milk--maybe a drop on the baby's chin, after he's done.

The reaction may be because males think that breasts belong to them, as FF and others have suggested. But that doesn't explain the extreme reactions of some women (I don't mean women on this site).

That's why I think it may have more to do with missing out on essential nurturing and love. Witnessing it reminds them of what they're missing.

water_bear88

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 6:30 pm

I think disgust at milk is cultural. I've bottlefed babies I've cared for with their mothers' expressed milk and never found it gross. Cows' milk isn't gross (while their urine surely is!) Until there was safe modern formula, wetnursing was how you got your baby fed if you couldn't nurse them yourself. Would you really let your baby die rather than drink someone else's milk if you didn't have access to formula and clean water?

(As per my previous comment- when I say I've covered up as best as I can, sometimes that's with a cover and sometimes not. At some point a cover became a distracting game of peekaboo and was less cover than a non-distracted baby, so I quit carrying it around.)

Laiya

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 6:34 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I read that that's not the case. There are indigenous tribes where the women do not wear anything above the waist, and their breasts are viewed as purely functional

Volunteer

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 10:11 pm

[quote="FranticFrummie"]I'll bet you anything this guy's got a stack of Playboy's at home. Rolling Eyes

Just because you wouldn't bf in public, doesn't mean that nobody else should be able to. Considering what a lot of women wear as "tops" in the summer, a baby covers up more boob than a lot of shirts I see on the street. At least with a baby, she has a legit reason to show a few inches of skin.[/quote

I love this post!

dancingqueen

Thu, Jun 16 2016, 11:43 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Lol I think you are right, I'm sure he wouldn't be berating her for showing cleavage.

It's easy to say cover up, but a lot of babies, including my own won't nurse with the cover, though I do try to be as covered as possible. Take it up with the baby!

Fox

Fri, Jun 17 2016, 12:20 am

Laiya wrote:

But that doesn't explain the extreme reactions of some women (I don't mean women on this site).

That's why I think it may have more to do with missing out on essential nurturing and love. Witnessing it reminds them of what they're missing.

Please, please don't snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Everyone agrees that this guy was crazy and that the mom was not behaving inappropriately, even if many of us might have covered up a bit more.

But when you start extrapolating various psychological issues from people's reactions, you're significantly weakening the case.

I happen to be uncomfortable seeing women nurse, even discreetly, because I suffered from severe D-MER. Even though I'm l-o-n-g past baby-feeding days, I still get a slightly clammy, nauseated feeling when I see someone nursing. It's really just a conditioned reflex, and obviously, it'smy problem -- I don't run around trying to prevent people from nursing in my presence. If I'm really badly affected in a particular situation, I just excuse myself.

But having been severely bullied by lactation consultants, etc., back in the day, I tend to get very feisty when people want to draw broad conclusions. Stick to making the argument that women should feel comfortable nursing in public. Don't get into the business of psychoanalyzing the naysayers.

Chana Miriam S

Fri, Jun 17 2016, 12:52 am

singleagain wrote:

I'm reading this thread, and while I have yet to experience this dilemma, it reminds me of this:

I literally watched this episode tonight! Some mothers here must have starred as Luke in it.

marina

Fri, Jun 17 2016, 1:55 am

Fox wrote:

I never knew about this! Thanks for posting.

For everyone else: D-MER is this interesting medical condition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....eflex

ora_43

Fri, Jun 17 2016, 2:33 am

Laiya wrote:

I read that that's not the case. There are indigenous tribes where the women do not wear anything above the waist, and their breasts are viewed as purely functional

Where did you read that?

As a previous poster said, there's an actual physical connection between breasts and s-xual arousal. Yes, in some tribes women go topless. There are also nudist colonies where people wear no clothes at all. That doesn't mean that in those places, people have no s-xual organs.

ora_43

Fri, Jun 17 2016, 2:42 am

water_bear88 wrote:

I think disgust at milk is cultural. I've bottlefed babies I've cared for with their mothers' expressed milk and never found it gross.

I personally don't think milk is gross on the level that urine is, but it is a bodily fluid and should be treated as such re: sanitation.

Quote:

Would you really let your baby die rather than drink someone else's milk if you didn't have access to formula and clean water?

I have no idea where that came from. Who said anything of the kind??

water_bear88

Fri, Jun 17 2016, 3:09 am

ora_43 wrote:

I have no idea where that came from. Who said anything of the kind??

Nobody said it in so many words, but I'm weirded out by the general disgust at what is the normal and natural food of human babies. It is food. Period. It needs little more regard to sanitation than cow's milk (assuming you're not planning on drinking it yourself), and way less than raw meat or chicken that most of us prepare in our kitchens on a regular basis. Classifying it with urine is inappropriate because it says, if your choice is to feed your baby next to me or in the bathroom, please do it in the bathroom. I don't eat in bathrooms and neither do my children. Stop comparing their food to bodily waste!

m in Israel

Fri, Jun 17 2016, 3:15 am

I finally watched the clip, and honestly I don't think the real story here should be about the man yelling at her -- I thought the clip was great in how the vast majority of people actually reacted properly here! The woman "defending" her was terrific, and it seems like the store employees did the right thing, too. I actually thought it was rather encouraging for breastfeeding women.