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amother
Pewter
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 Sun, Jul 17 2016, 8:07 am
Hi,
I am wondering if anyone could help explain this to me.
There is someone I meet very often and while most of the time she covers her hair partly with a fedora or cap, sometimes she doesn't cover at all.
I can't ask this person direct for various reasons, but I would really like to understand this supposed paradox. Either you believe you cover your hair or you don't, no?
Please note that I'm not being judgmental in my query, I'm just trying to genuinely understand the hashkafa or reasoning behind such a seemingly contrary belief.
Respectful responses only please.
Thank you
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amother
Smokey
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 8:18 am
I believe. 100% that I shouldn't get angry. But sometimes I do.
I believe 100% that I shouldn't talk lashon hara . But sometimes I do.
I believe 100% that I should dress tznius. But sometimes on a very hot day, I don't.
Probably the same thing with the hat.
Or could be.... I'm working towards covering my hair all the tine. It's a hard mitzvah for me so I'm doing it. slowly.
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heidi
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 8:23 am
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Some women hold that you don't have to cover your hair anywhere that it's obvious you're married-- ie: in your home.
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amother
Orchid
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 8:23 am
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I don't believe that hair needs to be covered, but I usually keep it covered partially for social reasons, when I'm in town or around people whom I know.
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amother
Pewter
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 8:41 am
Thank you for your replies.
The only place I meet this woman is at her workplace - in her office - so the home covering reasoning doesn't apply.
I've never met her outside of her office. I'm just flummoxed why it's sometimes ok and sometimes not. This is a person I have to trust deeply and besides for the non-consistent head covering she is so straight and predictable, so it's extra confusing to me. In the long run this doesn't significantly effect my relationship with her, I respect her deeply but it still is a bit of a stumbling block in how I see her. I know if I were to understand the reasoning behind it I would stop wondering about it and move on.
Again it's always in the office that I see her so I would assume the same hashkafa rules you follow should always apply? No?
Clarity appreciated!
Thank you
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DrMom
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 8:48 am
- Maybe she is wearing hats for fashion and not as a kisui rosh.
- Maybe the other days she is wearing a wig or hairpiece.
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water_bear88
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 8:49 am
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Women of my parents' generation and above in my family have always worn hats to shul, for benschlicht and simchas, even if they didn't otherwise cover. I don't generally cover at home. If hats are 'in' these days where you live someone who is only makpida to cover at certain times might want to wear a hat for fashion or health at others.
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PinkFridge
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 8:58 am
| amother wrote: | Thank you for your replies.
The only place I meet this woman is at her workplace - in her office - so the home covering reasoning doesn't apply.
I've never met her outside of her office. I'm just flummoxed why it's sometimes ok and sometimes not. This is a person I have to trust deeply and besides for the non-consistent head covering she is so straight and predictable, so it's extra confusing to me. In the long run this doesn't significantly effect my relationship with her, I respect her deeply but it still is a bit of a stumbling block in how I see her. I know if I were to understand the reasoning behind it I would stop wondering about it and move on.
Again it's always in the office that I see her so I would assume the same hashkafa rules you follow should always apply? No?
Clarity appreciated!
Thank you |
She might hold that covering at all isn't necessary and when she does do it it's a courtesy to the people around her. If she doesn't cover all her hair but leaves some out she might be following the shita that says the scalp should be covered but not necessarily the hair beyond the scalp. I hadn't heard of this shita but I did hear a woman once explain it. She personally has grappled with kisui rosh and this she can handle and my hat is (figuratively, of course) off to her. It's a minority opinion but she lives in the halachic world that follows that opinion and I respect her consistency.
Also - and I learned this from the book Hide and Seek - the idea of it not being necessary to cover the hair comes from the same place most understand as the source TO cover the hair, the sotah. Her hair was parua, which is widely understood to mean uncovered, IOW it was the practice to keep the hair covered. Others understand it as meaning disheveled, which means it was the practice to keep the hair "shoveled." IOW, if someone follows this and wants to be consistent she would wear her hair in a more demure style. Not necessarily librarian but not long and wild.
If I knew that someone was being consistent in her approach from any of this angles I would respect that. However, even if I didn't, and that person was as ehrlich as you describe, I personally would not have the struggles you do re judging her. You're not a bad person. In case, you're a very good person for having the goal of looking at someone with an ayin tova and realizing you have blockages sometimes, and you want to analyze where they're coming from. Figurative hats off to you too!
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amother
Chocolate
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 9:08 am
When I got married I covered my hair all the time, mostly with scarves/ tichels but occasionally with a hat that covers everything.
I live in Europe and the Jewish community in my city isn't huge, many don't cover their hair and there is a large sector of the Jewish community that cover with sheitals. It's not that common to cover with scarves and I started to feel exposed. I worked in a secular environment and started to dislike standing out. I also don't believe that uncovering my hair would compromise my relationship with Hashem.
However, I am afraid of being judged in the community if people see me with hair uncovered, even though the same people have other friends who never cover. I'm insecure, so I still cover, for them, not for Hashem.
Lately I have been out a couple of times with no hair covering. I knew that I probably wouldn't have seen anyone from the community and I didn't. If I had, I probably would have been uncomfortable, but I wish I was more confident.
| amother wrote: | | I respect her deeply but it still is a bit of a stumbling block in how I see her. I know if I were to understand the reasoning behind it I would stop wondering about it and move on. |
This is kind of why I still cover, because I feel as if people would treat me differently if I didn't.
Why would asking her be a problem? You could ask her in a non-judgemental way. If she's uncovering some of the time she's obviously OK with it though so it seems as if her standard is not to cover, but sometimes she does anyway.
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amother
Chocolate
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 9:09 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | | Figurative hats off to you too! |
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amother
Orchid
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 9:11 am
| amother wrote: | Thank you for your replies.
The only place I meet this woman is at her workplace - in her office - so the home covering reasoning doesn't apply.
I've never met her outside of her office. I'm just flummoxed why it's sometimes ok and sometimes not. This is a person I have to trust deeply and besides for the non-consistent head covering she is so straight and predictable, so it's extra confusing to me. In the long run this doesn't significantly effect my relationship with her, I respect her deeply but it still is a bit of a stumbling block in how I see her. I know if I were to understand the reasoning behind it I would stop wondering about it and move on.
Again it's always in the office that I see her so I would assume the same hashkafa rules you follow should always apply? No?
Clarity appreciated!
Thank you |
I uncover at work because I don't want to be openly frum, as I have found that people related to me differently when they knew I was frum. Maybe this woman feels like that too.
Honestly, I think you're judging for no good reason. What does her religious affiliation or lack thereof have to do with how well she does her job? If you haven't found her services to be unstable and fickle, her hair covering shouldn't be any of your concern. I think you're cloaking your judgment of her in supposed "concern" for your business relationship, when in reality one has nothing to do with the other.
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Kugglegirl
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 9:31 am
If the respect you need to have for her is for her professional judgement and expertise, I think you should try and separate that from your assessment of her religious commitment.
Many people are expert in their professional areas, while having complicated personal lives and/or spiritual lives which may be complicated, evolving or otherwise outside of someone elses concept of "norm".
I have a Dr. who is frum. She wears skirts some times, and pants some times. This really has no impact on her knowledge and expertise in her professional life & if my daughters go into that field of medicine, I would have no qualms about having this Dr. mentor them in learning the profession and how to be a competent professional. My Dr. is excellent at what she does & I trust her without question in her medical discipline. Her apparent "inconsistency" in wearing skirts per my understanding of halacha is irrelevant to being able to trust her professionally.
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moonstone
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 10:02 am
I only cover my hair in shul, as is the case with most of the women in my community. Not sure why we even cover in shul. I honestly don't think God cares whether I cover or not... I guess its tradition to cover in shul, something we all just do, and I have to admit its nice not to have to worry about having a bad hair day on Shabbat. 
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MamaBear
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 10:06 am
I know a mom who wears a "kippah fall." But you would 100% never know because her hairline is all her own hair pulled over the fall and the fall is so thin and flat it just blends in to her real hair.
She's able to pull the whole thing into a tight ponytail most days. You would never know she's wearing it. (nor am I promoting this type of hair covering btw)
This mom also owns a full sheitel that is obvious it's a shietel, the way most are. So some days it seems she is covering, some days not.
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Raisin
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 10:23 am
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She might be covering her hair around people who she thinks would be uncomfortable with uncovered hair.
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Chana Miriam S
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 10:29 am
| amother wrote: | Thank you for your replies.
The only place I meet this woman is at her workplace - in her office - so the home covering reasoning doesn't apply.
I've never met her outside of her office. I'm just flummoxed why it's sometimes ok and sometimes not. This is a person I have to trust deeply and besides for the non-consistent head covering she is so straight and predictable, so it's extra confusing to me. In the long run this doesn't significantly effect my relationship with her, I respect her deeply but it still is a bit of a stumbling block in how I see her. I know if I were to understand the reasoning behind it I would stop wondering about it and move on.
Again it's always in the office that I see her so I would assume the same hashkafa rules you follow should always apply? No?
Clarity appreciated!
Thank you |
Instead of worrying bout her, maybe work on yourself. You should be able to move on regardless. This is your problem, not hers.
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tf
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 10:49 am
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I think OP's question is in terms of mesorah, and wants to understand it from that aspect.
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amother
Oak
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 10:58 am
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I don't think it's a matter of hashkafah or how you hold (unless you're talking about shul vs not in shul). The people I've known who sometimes covered and sometimes didn't were simply on their way in either direction- either to stopping entirely, or covering entirely.
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amother
Orchid
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 11:20 am
| tf wrote: | | I think OP's question is in terms of mesorah, and wants to understand it from that aspect. |
But it's not her mesorah to worry about.
This is a business relationship, not a shidduch resume or personal friendship, and as such, this question only serves as gossip and yentishkeit for the OP.
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amother
Pewter
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Sun, Jul 17 2016, 11:22 am
Thank you for everyone who replied.
Some misunderstood, I'm not judging her - her level of yiddeshkeit is not my concern at all and I would still work with her if she goes uncovered all the time.
I may have been wrong to insinuate that it effects our professional relationship, though I do often wonder about it. Again, not in a judgmental way but a truly puzzling-and-trying-to-understand way. I've never really encountered before someone who traverses both sides of the fence at seemingly random intervals. I am a curious person and am open 100% to all forms of yiddeshkeit. I believe the the choice to choose how to serve Hashem is between you and Hashem only. Neither I nor anyone else has a say in that intimate relationship that is between Hashem and you!
I was simply curious for the reasoning behind this apparant contradiction, that's all.
The only response that resonates might be the kippa fall someone mentioned, though I've never heard of it before!
Any additional truly enlightening responses shall be appreciated.
Thank you
Oh, and let's keep this conversation intellectual and free of judgment please. This query is coming from a true desire to learn, not bash.
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