confused about jobs, finances, college. LIFE!

amother

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 11:50 am

my dh was in kollel when we married. we married young: I was 19, he was 21. I was in college at the time, but I dropped out to work full time supporting us with him in kollel. he never went to college, as he is a product of the yeshiva system, where his rebbes made the boys feel that college was fooolishness and pritzus and all that..and that with bitachon, a man can supoport his family if it becomes necessary, without a degree or any training...

in any case, we have a baby now. when I was pregnant, I asked dh what he plans to do to support us, and can he start coming up with ideas, cuz I dont really know if I am gonna want to work full time as a mommy. he was pretty chilled out about the whole thing, like no big deal, when its applicable he will gladly go to work. if I ever dont want to work full time, I should tell him so, and he will start looking for a job the very next day. etc. I was more worried: like hon dont you think we should plan more? get job training? etc and he was like, dont worry, if you have bitachon, it will all work out for us.

in any case, I have a child now B"H. myself working full time did not cover the expenses, as so much of my pay went toward babysitting. my dh needed to look for a job. he got a job in a jewish place, and it was fine that he had no training. but the pay was quite bad, and we are now lookng for something else for him.

I would really want him to go to college, but a- we need money now, b- even if we would be able to get by monetarily on my own salary, which is doubtful, I dont wanna work full time for such a long time. college takes a lot of time! I am so confused about everything. how do I send him through college at this point of our lives? and can a guy really make it on bitachon alone and no formal training? is it ok to send him through college (lets say he worked part time or something to cover the expenses that my job does not) and have my kid/s in babysitting throughout? why would the rabbis have told my dh that he should not plan ahead, and just have bitachon, if there is nothing out there that a guy can support his family on without formal training? I am going to have to assume that there must be options out there that dont require college...I dont know, I am just so confused about life.

what am I supposed to do at this point? he should go to college? he should not go to college? I should commit myself to working full time for a # of years, even though quite honestly I am not handling it very well physically or emotionally? have my kids raised by sitters? or if he doesnt go to college, what will be financially? just have bitachon and believe that Hashem provides...? maybe I should just work on my bitachon....! my dh is so trusting in Hashem, but I am more worried...

anyone who has a dh that is a product of the yeshiva system and has insights...id love to hear them...or anyone at all with any type of insights...

amother

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 12:11 pm

Oy oy oy amother, you have my sympathy, not sure if I can offer you much more. I have seen this happen time and time again, where a young, naive couple gets married, thinking they'll make money later on. Then, when there are a bunch of kids, and it's time to go to work, nobody is qualified or experienced enough to get a job that pays a living wage. In the last couple of days, there have been several such posts even by wives of working boys, who are starting to realise how expensive a frum life is.

Do you have parents or in-laws who are able/willing to invest in dh's education? Can he take classes at night? Take loans? There'e no way around this, it's going to be a really tough few years. That's what you signed on for when you married a learning boy. But think of it as an investment in your future, and hopefully things will get easier later on

Quote:

the rabbis have told my dh that he should not plan ahead, and just have bitachon

I would go back and ask them what they suggest you do. Somehow, when my tuition checks bounce, and I tell the yeshivas they don't need my money, they should have more bitachon, they don't accept that!!!! Confused

Twizzlers

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 12:22 pm

chen wrote:

Doesn't Agudah have some kind of voc training program for ppl in your sitch? They used to have something called COPE Institute, but it probably has a diff name now.

First of all, COPE is still alive and well and they have NOT changed their name. They give all kinds of courses and the times of their classes usually accomodate part time jobs, etc.
Having personally taken their accounting course, I definitely got a better paying job for it and I think its definitely a step in the right direction. since most of the courses are about 6 months in length, I would suggest starting with taking one of those courses, possibly while holding down a part time job.

Of course a college degree will raise a salary even more, but getting one of those could take 3 years, which u may decide to do at a later point, once he has a decently paying full time job and can go to college in the evenings.

Maya

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 1:04 pm

My husband was also in kollel for the first year after we got married. Since he is b'h very talented and skilled, we decided on a profession that would make him use those skills. He got a job in that field, and is attending college at night. We get government aid to finance his education, and he is making enough money to support us b"h.

Maybe that could work out for you. Pick a profession for your husband, apply for gov't aid, and have him attend college at night while working part time during the day. It will be a bit hectic the first 2-3 years, but it's worth it in the long run.

amother

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 1:26 pm

MY dh started "college" after we got married. He used his yeshiva years and semicha as a BA and went to lawschool. (That's why there are so many frum guys in lawschool- it's probably the only grad school that doesn't have specific prerequisites besides a BA). For those 3 years, I worked part time from home, and he paid for school through loans and scholarships. We paid for living expenses through school loans plus my small income. They're interest free until graduation and even though now we have to pay them back (it's a lot of debt) there's no question it was worth it. DH now has a job and a good salary b"H and we have some security. Of course he was upset about leaving yeshiva, but the realities of life required it-- you can't expect your wife who's birthing and raising the kids to also bring in the money. It's downright cruel.

IMO- a few years of struggling/ borrrowing/ wife working overtime is worth it if it means you'll have a lifetime ahead of you of a solid and paying career. Good luck to you.

(About what the rabbanim said, you'll need bitachon even with a degree! It's hard enough for a college graduate to get a job, let alone someone without any skills!)

Ruchel

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 2:06 pm

My dh has a few smaller degrees but no "big" (master and more) one. After some years of university he spent a year in kollel then started working in something he liked. As I said in another thread here the rabbis will tell you it's useful to go to university, but I wish his rav pushed him to go on more. Of course kollel is great but with a master you feel really secure.

6/8 months ago he took an accountancy class that seemed very "advanced" (= I couldn't understand anything despite a degree in economics), he told me it would be useful to him if he decided to start a business, which he will probably do in 6ish months, when dd will be 1 (not safe to stay at home forever unfortunately)

Maybe your husband would be more interested in starting something himself ? So he does what he likes, when he likes? He can even work from home maybe. If he needs uni for that, it is worth the time and energy.

There are even Jewish universities in America, maybe he could go there? My dh wanted to go to YU but his rav told him it wasn't good so he had better go to regular university in his country. No idea if it's true.

amother

Thu, Aug 23 2007, 2:06 pm

good luck! we are in the same situation, we started out the same way, my dh is in colloge now to get a degree. it is very hard he is also working partime jobs so it is very hard for him to study and work, I also had a babysitting job and also worked partime. it is very hard.
the problem with college is that you have to know what degree you need in order to get a job, and to make sure that the college has you in the right program and lets you take the courses that you need, it can drag on and take longer than you think it will,
a good solution would be to go to something like cope that everyone suggests, or go to school like lincoln tech for graphic design, medical assistant etc.(look in the help wanted section in the news paper like new york times etc) the courses can last about 8 months. its not so expensive 2000$ and can lead to a good job. or go for cdl bus driving there are a lot of ads for a bus driver.
if its possible if you could finnish your degree even if it takes a while in the long run it will hopefully mean more income. in ny there is empire state collage wich is part of the suny system. it is geared for woking adults, they let you clep and give credits for life experiance. they also take finacial aide.
I agree with the amother before me you need bitachon for parnossa even if you have a degree or certificate, my dh has a certificate in computers but the systen that he learned became obsolete. it is making a keli for hashems brachos, people that can get bye with out an education or skills have mazel, or good sales ablilty or an eye for making deals in bussiness or real estate, some start up cash wouldn't hurt either; but if one is able there are places people can get loans to start up business. I would suggest to my kids that if they don't want to go to college, they should learn how to lain, safrus, shechita, how to be a chazzen if they have a nice voice, etc... even get a cdl and tlc license so they will have skills in order to get a job. good luck hashem should bless you for everything good!

Motek

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 12:54 pm

amother wrote:

we are now lookng for something else for him.

Why is it "we"? It is his responsibility to support you.

Quote:

how do I send him through college at this point of our lives?

sounds like you're talking about a child rather than a husband ...

Quote:

and can a guy really make it on bitachon alone and no formal training?

is bitachon not something real then?

Quote:

what am I supposed to do at this point? he should go to college? he should not go to college? I should commit myself to working full time for a # of years, even though quite honestly I am not handling it very well physically or emotionally? have my kids raised by sitters? or if he doesnt go to college, what will be financially? just have bitachon and believe that Hashem provides...? maybe I should just work on my bitachon....! my dh is so trusting in Hashem, but I am more worried...

I think it's marvelous that your husband is so trusting in Hashem! What you should do - in my opinion, you should relinquish all thoughts about support. It is his concern, not yours.

amother

Fri, Aug 24 2007, 1:36 pm

Interesting comments Motek.
I think that the particular family dynamics play a big role in each situation. Maybe this amother is more anxious than her husband, who is ok as long as they can pay for food, while she is busy worrying about how she will pay a bunch of tuitions in a few years G-d willing. Maybe he is so used to the idea of bitachon that was not taught with an emphasis on making a keli? Maybe he is not the college type for a bunch of reasons? Maybe he is just overwhelmed at the idea of entering a world that is completely new to him and he just doen't know where to start.
All of these things need to be considered by the amother and her DH together. But telling her to leave it all to him won't necessarily work for her situation. And, that doesn't mean there is something wrong with her husband or therir marriage! I agree that parnassa should be the husbands role but if it hasn't quite worked out that way, and many times it doesn't, it doesn't mean that you ned to have an unhappy life. We all need to do the best we can with our own situations, and daven that Hashem should bless us when we have made our keli.

There are many options. He can take a shorter course and learn a skill doing that full time, work and go to school at night, you could go back to school and get a better job... Just know that there are options out there. I think you will feel so much better when the two of you decide on a plan together.

amother

Sun, Aug 26 2007, 6:17 am

I agree with Motek. I was at 2 weddings this week, and listened carefully as the ketubot were read. I only heard that the HUSBAND is responsible for all his wife's needs, and not vice versa. I am so sorry that today's young men are able to relinquish responsibility in the name of Torah.
This young man, a husband and father needs to get a professional life going. The couple may need to move "out of town" to finance it, and live frugally for the next 10 years. It can be done. They are still very very young. Here in Israel, most men do not start University before age 21 anyway, and that's the absolute youngest, after 3 years of army.
It breaks my heart when a mother wishes to do her job, I.e. mothering her babies, and she feels she "cannot" do it. Oh yes you can! Simply stop bringing in any money other than what you can earn with your baby by your side, and let the man take over.
It's high time women got out of the mess feminism caused us. We have a job, and let's do it right!!!

amother

Sun, Aug 26 2007, 8:46 am

[quote="amother"]So she should simply stop working and let him see how it feels?
I guess that is a new way of communicating.[/quote]

I wrote that I agree with Motek that she should stop working but of course meant it should be done in a reasonable manner. She can suggest ways for them to start saving so as not to need a large income, and ways for him to start a future for them. On the other hand, you will notice that many times it doesn't bother the husband that his working wife has all her old responsibilities PLUS a baby... what does it take to wake a guy up? She has been communicating that she's not happy - that should be a hint for the husband to get moving towards a profession, no? Why should the onus of parnassa fall upon the wife/mother? Especially if she doesn't want that burden..... These are two very young parents, they can make life happen quite easily if they try, even without her income.