An observation about two recent threads

amother

Blonde

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 8:04 pm

Please don't misconstrue this.

I truly truly believe that people can spend their money how they like, and I really have no idea about the Ins and outs oc other people's lives, so it is not my place to judge.

However, I found it interesting that there was quite a lot of support on the tzeddeka thread for not supporting "irresponsible" people, whilst on the threw about getting a live in there is a lot of support for the idea of "sure, if you can afford it, why not?".

Just an interesting juxtaposition to me.

Ammother because, well, I'm feeling a little fragile right now.

mummiedearest

Wed, Sep 14 2016, 8:36 pm

having a live-in, if there is a need and one can afford it, is not only being responsible (recognizing a problem, finding a practical solution and paying for it with one's own money), it is also supporting someone else in an effort to be responsible. the live-in wants to be able to pay her bills and looks for a job. there's nothing wrong with hiring one if one is needed and affordable.

I think, op, that you are assuming a live-in is a luxury. in many cases, it is. I am a sahm myself, and a live-in would be a combination luxury/annoyance to me (I prefer my own space, don't like non-family around for too long). I am aware of the work I need to do, and I am aware of the fact that I am capable of doing it. however, I do hire babysitters upon occasion to enable me to do some things. being a sahm does not mean I don't need help upon occasion. other people who stay home need other kinds of help, and if they can afford what they need, good for them.

talking about not sponsoring a luxurious lifestyle for people who never took responsibility for their own livelihood is a different topic.

amother

Natural

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 5:24 am

This is an interesting observation. It looks like we are saying, be generous with yourself but hold others to a higher standard. I understand the discomfort.

There are a few differences, though. Even in the thread about tzedaka, no one was saying that all help to families with insufficient income should be stopped. Some were saying that when they set priorities, they choose elsewhere.

Another difference: hiring live-in help is almost always a luxury. There is no rule against making your life easier if you can afford it. The question is, what constitutes making life easy? A washing machine makes my life easier than scrubbing clothes by hand. Should I forgo that as a luxury? Most of us would say no. Now, by having a washing machine, I am raising children who expect this. Generally, we are ok with this, and if I heard that a family in my neighborhood couldn't afford a washing machine, I'd help them. If I heard that a family in my neighborhood couldn't afford live-in help, and there were no extenuating circumstances, I would not contribute to the cause.

Another way to make life easier is to stop bringing in an income. At that point, my decision impacts others, who are going to have to make up for the money I don't earn. Hiring live-in help might spoil my kids and my in-law children might pay the price when their spouses don't pick up after themselves, but the community as a whole isn't going to have to pitch in because I didn't do housework. If I or my husband didn't work, that would be a whole different story.

amother

Taupe

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 6:12 am

Giving tzedaka is a beautiful mitzve and a lot of people can afford and even more people need it.

I do know of a family where the man can't work because of medical problems. They get money from a lot of people and from organizations. People pay their rent, tuition, food. They get packages for shabbes
However they themselves live such a luxurious life. When it comes to shopping for clothes, newest styles. Vacations, babysitters and cleaning help. Camp for the kids...
I personally stopped sending money to them as I feel they spend it for things that I can't afford myself.
My kids could wear hand me downs. Their kids hardly do.
I cut down on a lot of cleaning help while they have a cleaner daily...
Just a few examples

ora_43

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 7:55 am

amother wrote:

So why can't I give tzedakah "if I can afford it"?

Why is it okay to get live in help but not okay to give money to someone because you feel personally affronted by that person having a decent life when you don't agree with their choices?

(At least that's how I understood OP)

Who ever said that it's not OK to give money to someone if you don't agree with their choices?

The other thread was about community perception and whether a distinction should be made between "by choice" poverty and no-choice poverty. Nobody was saying that the only thing anyone should ever spend money on is tzedaka.

Jeanette

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 9:50 am

amother wrote:

I don't know anything about this particular situation. But in general, raising money even for a worthy cause is hard. There's never enough tzedaka funds to go around, so I doubt there are many living large on tzedaka.

Part of the problem is that if someone is unemployed due to disability, the govt wil provide basic expenses, so tzedaka funds can go to extras (which in themselves may not cost that much). If you are working and paying taxes, you may end up with the same or less disposable income than someone on govt programs.

Not knowing the nature of this persons disability and toll on the family, regular cleaning help may be warranted. Not quite seeing a justification for tzedaka money for expensive clothes.

dimyona

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 9:56 am

amother wrote:

Live-ins are not always an absolute luxury. If someone has small children and works many hours, this is often more cost efficient than daycare + cleaning help.

Chayalle

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 9:59 am

Suppose I win the lottery tomorrow (highly unlikely, given the fact that I have never in my life purchased a ticket, but anyway.....)

So I win the jackpot, and with part of my proceeds, I purchase a large, lovely, many-roomed home for each of my 3 daughters. Since I value Torah learning, and I can afford to support them comfortably, each of them marry a long-term learner. They live in these nice, spacious homes and their husbands learn. I hire plenty of help for them, and they are able to manage nicely. Each of my girls has a large family B"EH and it's all nice and wonderful.

I can afford it, right, so why not? If that's my value, and I have the money to support it, I have a right to this, no?

OK...next. There are families in various communities around the world where the father is dedicated to a life of learning Torah. They also value having as many children as they are able.

And there are families out there who value this kind of lifestyle and commitment, and they are able and willing to support that. They make donations to Yeshivos, Kollelim, and other organizations to support those who are willing to live a lifestyle that they value.

What's the problem?

Chayalle

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 10:06 am

amother wrote:

I don't know enough about this family, but I'll share a conversation I recently had with my 8 year old daughter. She had been to visit my niece for the afternoon. My niece is a year older than DD, and is B"H in remission from a very painful bout that has played out over the past 3 years.

My niece has all the greatest toys and games. Several American Girl dolls, various computer games with programs loaded for fascinating play, and a real live soft and cuddly bunny rabbit named Fuzzy....just to name a smidgen of it. A girl's dream. Some of it purchased by doting grandparents, various relatives, and neighbors and friends trying to bring a smile to a little girl's face.

We talked about it, and DD expressed that while she loves playing with all those toys, she's so happy Hashem made her healthy and well. She would not exchange what she has - she specifically mentioned never having to go for painful needles every few weeks - for all of this. She is fully aware of the blessings in her life and that she doesn't need what her cousin has.....

Maybe this family suffers from their father's medical condition in ways you don't know. Vacations can be a breather from these challenges and what keeps them sane as a family.....cleaning help keeps them from dysfunction....nice clothes makes those kids smile.

Just a thought.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 11:12 am

Chayalle wrote:

That is a beautiful story, thank you for sharing!

DD had a friend who was very wealthy and spoiled, but this girl often said that she wished she could come live with DD and me in our tiny, cramped, cluttered, messy home. She saw that warmth, love, and values we have, and she would have traded her HUGE house and busy working parents any time.

kollel wife

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 11:53 am

Chayalle wrote:

So eloquently and beautifully expressed. Thank you!!

PinkFridge

Thu, Sep 15 2016, 12:00 pm

amother wrote:

The thread mentioned was about a sahm getting a live in.

B"H I haven't seen either thread. I am especially glad not to have seen the tzedaka thread as I'm sure I'd have had what to say.
In defense of the SAHM who wants a live-in: I have no idea how many kids she has, what kind of a lifestyle she grew up with (e.g. maybe she lived in Mexico or South Africa where people have lots of help), etc. And, I have no idea what her current income is. I do not need to know. I will say, as I've said, that wealthy people do well if they live below their means. However below their means is way above mine; it could still include a live-in. And, I have no idea what their commitments are. Many wealthy women, even if SAHM, have tremendous community commitments, business commitments for their husbands, etc. and need their lives to run as smoothly as possible.

One word about the tzedaka thread. I'm sure (tongue in cheek) than no one was judgmental or nasty about anyone's poor decisions to have got them in the position to need tzedaka in the first place. May all of us never be, or never again be, in the position to need help.