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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
When they come from a "good home"



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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 24 2007, 1:58 pm
Quote:
The myth persists, even among therapists, that it is common for children who are loved, respected and treated with sensitivity for their emotional needs by their parents, to rebel against these very parents to the point of rejecting their way of life.

It seems that it is less threatening to believe that something bad can happen to a "good family," (e.g., when a child rebels) than to acknowledge that a person who is looked up to in the community can be abusive to his or her children. After all, it isn't only children who have a need for idealization (Kohut, 1987; Lee & Martin, 1991). The fact that parents - who are perceived in our collective unconscious as the prototype of the loving and caring individual - can be abusive to their children, can be difficult for us to accept.

Consider, for example, the years of denial that s-xual abuse could actually occur within the frum family. Certainly, therapists are not immune to these feelings and therefore, it is not surprising if, at times, they unconsciously collude with patients and/or parents in denying this reality. As Gartner (1999) states:

Therapists frequently experience the impulse to reel back from the shock and deny the horror of the material being described. This is a natural reaction in any therapists who is empathically attuned to the patient.. Like the patient, the therapist may try to keep the experience unformulated and unsynthesized. After all, trauma by definition is an event that seemed impossible in the patient's worldview, and may seem equally impossible to the therapist. The dilemma. is that it is in experiencing the therapist's struggle to listen to the impossible that the patient gets freed from it. [p. 257]

There have been times that I have also been convinced that I had encountered an example of a youngster from a "good home" (in both the religious and emotional-health sense) that "went off the derech." But inevitably it turns out that my initial conclusion was premature. It was only because I found it difficult to believe that a youngster from a loving home would have a sufficient reason to take such a drastic step that I kept asking questions (while being careful not to be suggestive) until I was able to indeed understand why it happened.

I once treated a young man from a highly respected family who had gone off the derech. During the first months of therapy he reported that there had not been any difficulties in his relationship with his parents before he became irreligious. His father was a highly respected religious figure with a reputation for gentle kindness to all those who came to him for advice and guidance.

At one point, the patient's mother came for a consultation (with the patient's consent) regarding another sibling. In our conversation she related that my patient wasn't as bright as his brilliant father or his other siblings and as a result, he didn't perform in yeshiva as well as his father expected him to. His father would become so angry that he would get into physical confrontations with his son.

As the mother described these fights I became overwhelmed with a discomforting feeling. The image of a man revered by the community (including myself) for his piousness and gentleness rolling on the floor in an altercation with his son just because he wasn't making his father proud was almost too painful to tolerate.

http://www.drsorotzkin.com/rol......html
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 24 2007, 2:02 pm
I agree.

But do you think all the children who go off the derech were abused?
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 26 2007, 10:39 pm
Quote:
This is the scariest article on chinuch I've ever read. As I read it, I kept trying to deny the truth of what he was saying, but as he went along, he skillfully proved the falsehood in my denials.
Although I still believe the evidence presented in Off the Derech, that bad school experiences or s-xual abuse can counteract even the most wonderful parenting, Dr. Sorotzkin makes a convincing case that in the majority of children going off the derech, it's a defect in the home, not only the school. (And really, even when it has to do with school, perhaps the child is consciously or unconsciously angry with his or her otherwise wonderful parents who allowed their child to remain in schools where they are verbally or physically abused.)

The article also made me despair. My husband is extremely difficult. He's either never home because he's busy learning or doing kiruv, and when he is home, he either needs to have these loud, boisterous conversations on the telephone (meaning that he's physically present, but not personally present,) or he's getting all hot-tempered with me and the kids. The Shabbos table is sometimes a real nightmare.

According to this article, there is no hope for my kids' frumkeit. I thought about this a lot. So I just decided to totally dedicate myself to having a really good relationship with them, to keep on showing them lots of love and acceptance even if they do eventually go off. I explained to them that our home is NOT an example of a Torah home, so I hope that they'll keep an open-mind toward an observant life when they get older instead of thinking that keeping Torah means you're dysfunctional. I emphasize the person-to-person mitzvos and davening--not even formal davening, but talking to Hashem in your own words--because that is what's most important. I don't let my husband yell at them or hit them because it makes me sick, and I want them to learn that it's wrong, and that we stand up for people who are smaller or weaker.

They already ask me why did I marry him and why don't I divorce him? The truth is, I came very, very close to doing so, but after consulting with one of the gadolei hador, he convinced me that having more children would improve my husband and my marriage. It didn't. It almost killed me, and if you almost kill the mother, that means that the children don't have a functioning mother, as my children didn't for about two years. Too bad. Had I been left to my own devices, I could be satisfactorily divorced now with one child. Or maybe not. Maybe I'd still be married but my husband wouldn't be so bad. Dealing with an overtired, post-partum, overwhelmed wife infuriates him. Why keep on doing it in with such a spouse? (And no, I did not explain all this to my kids. I told them something else.)Now I'm too drained emotionally and physically to go through the harrowing process of divorce, but maybe later.

By the way, Rabbi Horowitz and Dr. Sorotzkin, what do you say about people in my situation? Unfortunately, I see tons and tons of families like mine, in which one spouse is willing to invest in the home and the other lives totally according to his or her ego, especially in families of the community hot-shots, like my husband presents himself. In fact, it's so common, that when I see a pulpit or community rabbi, I automatically wonder what his problem is. Is he neglectful of his family? Violent? Verbally abusive? A thief? Actually, this problem needs to be addressed, too. You have lots of lovely, functional families in the frum community clinging to rabbis whose emotional health and middos are on very low madreigas.


posted in response to the article
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 26 2007, 10:57 pm
Quote:
You have lots of lovely, functional families in the frum community clinging to rabbis whose emotional health and middos are on very low madreigas.


HA. And when I say that, I'm told to shut up.

The person everyone comes to for chinuch advice in my dh's community has 6 out of 8 children off the derech. The man who always told everyone to listen to him because he was a gadol, has 4 children out of 4 off the derech.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 31 2007, 11:41 am
Ruchel wrote:
The person everyone comes to for chinuch advice in my dh's community has 6 out of 8 children off the derech. The man who always told everyone to listen to him because he was a gadol, has 4 children out of 4 off the derech.


Well, on this forum, several posters think it's reasonable to consult with a divorced marriage counselor or a never married marriage counselor because they can give good advice ...
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Aug 31 2007, 11:46 am
Motek wrote:
Ruchel wrote:
The person everyone comes to for chinuch advice in my dh's community has 6 out of 8 children off the derech. The man who always told everyone to listen to him because he was a gadol, has 4 children out of 4 off the derech.


Well, on this forum, several posters think it's reasonable to consult with a divorced marriage counselor or a never married marriage counselor because they can give good advice ...


Yes, maybe the advice of these people is good and they just have children with bad personalities... but 6 out of 8?? 4 out of 4?? a bit big imho...

I personally wouldn't go to a divorced or non married counselor if I could avoid! Unless I know the divorced spouse was crazy and it has nothing to do with the counselor...
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morningstar




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Sep 01 2007, 11:41 pm
Well, let's take this theory to its logical conclusion.
If you assume that only people who have successfully parented non-troubled teenagers can tell a parent how to raise children so none of them end up in trouble--
Then only someone who has struggled with a kid and helped them move past that stage can advise parents with kids already in trouble how to get past the current situation.
An always happily married therapist who has never had any conflict at home can be very helpful to someone just starting out in terms of telling them what worked.
But perhaps someone who has struggled in marriage and successfully worked through frustrations has better advice for someone else who is currently struggling.
We understand how someone who has undergone a loss ( and healed in a healthy manner) can provide better support for someone else undergoing the same loss than someone who has never lost anyone.
Why should it be different in other difficult areas in life?
Experience is the best teacher... And one who has learned its lessons well is best equipped to transmit the wisdom.
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